[cplchanb]

Joining together the last few posts, HSR in Japan does need to be elevated over agricultural fields (adding costs) because rice fields need to flood as part of their growing cycle.

Pretty sure that our Canadian fields have no need to inundate the same way every year, meaning we can build on land, more cost-effectively than Japan, in rural areas.

Yea but having it elevated will make it much easier to solve the rural opposition dilemma as they would have no argument against their land being segregated by rail. Not to mention its not exactly a straightforward pennies on the dollar job to grade all the land for the RoW to be perfectly level for 500km. Maybe having concrete piers that can be adjusted to match grading in the end would be the cheaper option. But of course our politicians who dont see the bigger picture will not bite

 

[Johnny Au]

The things the anti-ALTO people are saying are just so over the top. Like "it will be the end to agriculture in the area". How misinformed can people be? Has farming ended in Japan, China, and Europe? How did we all miss the news on that??

Apparently, to these folks, freeway construction doesn't end agriculture in the area.

In reality, HSR is much more efficient than freeways when it comes to moving people.

 

[micheal_can]

Apparently, to these folks, freeway construction doesn't end agriculture in the area.

In reality, HSR is much more efficient than freeways when it comes to moving people.

The issue is not whether it will end farming or not. It is the assumption by the public that that study area means that all lands in there will forever be changed and negatively affected. Imagine if for the Ontario line that instead of neat routes, they had a 10km wide swath through the city? How would local residents have acted. This is a communications failure. For the picture below, the distance between the outer points is about 7km. Imagine a 7km wide line. Imagine the chaos from that. 10km is Yonge St to Kennedy Rd.

 

[reinventingthewheel]

Not to mention its not exactly a straightforward pennies on the dollar job to grade all the land for the RoW to be perfectly level for 500km. Maybe having concrete piers that can be adjusted to match grading in the end would be the cheaper option. But of course our politicians who dont see the bigger picture will not bite

It will always be far cheaper to use bridges only as needed and otherwise construct berms to achieve acceptable vertical curvature. After all, we’re talking about farmland here not huge peaks and valleys.

If a farmer is inconvenienced by a severed lot, the greatest concession made by Alto would be a small underpass to reconnect the lot. Bridging over entire farms is just overengineering.

 

[cplchanb]

It will always be far cheaper to use bridges only as needed and otherwise construct berms to achieve acceptable vertical curvature. After all, we’re talking about farmland here not huge peaks and valleys.

If a farmer is inconvenienced by a severed lot, the greatest concession made by Alto would be a small underpass to reconnect the lot. Bridging over entire farms is just overengineering.

Seems like they arent even interested in that.
Time is money as well. The longer they delay the construction due to these trivial matters the more expensive it will get and the longer it will take

 

[StreetcarRider]

Things have become so fraught that sponsorship from Alto for a cultural festival has become controversial:

“Consequently, it was difficult for many members of the francophone community to accept that a prominent Franco-Ontarian cultural festival was receiving financial support from the very organization seeking to purchase—or potentially expropriate—lands and forests from local residents,” [Boisés-Est President Jean] St-Pierre said.

He added that in the views of Boisés-Est, the Festival Franco-Ontarien organizers did the right thing by deciding to discontinue the sponsorship arrangement with Alto on June 11.

Franco festival sponsorship by high-speed project creates controversy

On Thursday, June 11, the Festival Franco-Ontarien announced it had ended its controversial sponsorship arrangement with the Alto crown corporation that is planning to build the high-speed rail line between Ottawa and Montreal. The sponsorship had attracted criticism from many francophone...

thereview.ca

 

[just east of the creek]

It will always be far cheaper to use bridges only as needed and otherwise construct berms to achieve acceptable vertical curvature. After all, we’re talking about farmland here not huge peaks and valleys.

If a farmer is inconvenienced by a severed lot, the greatest concession made by Alto would be a small underpass to reconnect the lot. Bridging over entire farms is just overengineering.

I am not sure the word 'inconvenienced' is the correct word to use here. This is not your business which is being severed and this is not your business which is being turned on its head by the imposition of the ALTO ROW. 'Just farmland' is such a urban GTA Doug Ford thing. Having said that, I am not arguing the point that this needs to be done in some way, shape or form. ALTO is too important a project. However, drive down any series 400 highway in this province and you will see, even now, the effects of farm severing that occurred since 1947 or thereabouts.

So if we followed the Chinese model, then yes, there would be km's of bridged ROW with farming going on underneath. And the track benefits that ensue as well, especially in the frost prone environment that we have with a planned average operating speed in excess of 200 kmh. Pretty sure that Canada will cheapen out on that, as we have done so many projects before.

However if you are building an underpass for farm use, then i need (off the top of my head) about 6 meters in width and the same in height, maybe a bit more (That's taking the heads off the combine to traverse the underpass) . If you build a bridge, then we have to design for for width, clearance and carrying capacity. And in building either, then i need them designed for approaches where the better fit into my farm business, not just where the designers feel it works for the railway.

 

[reinventingthewheel]

I am not sure the word 'inconvenienced' is the correct word to use here. This is not your business which is being severed and this is not your business which is being turned on its head by the imposition of the ALTO ROW. 'Just farmland' is such a urban GTA Doug Ford thing. Having said that, I am not arguing the point that this needs to be done in some way, shape or form. ALTO is too important a project. However, drive down any series 400 highway in this province and you will see, even now, the effects of farm severing that occurred since 1947 or thereabouts.

So if we followed the Chinese model, then yes, there would be km's of bridged ROW with farming going on underneath. And the track benefits that ensue as well, especially in the frost prone environment that we have with a planned average operating speed in excess of 200 kmh. Pretty sure that Canada will cheapen out on that, as we have done so many projects before.

However if you are building an underpass for farm use, then i need (off the top of my head) about 6 meters in width and the same in height, maybe a bit more (That's taking the heads off the combine to traverse the underpass) . If you build a bridge, then we have to design for for width, clearance and carrying capacity. And in building either, then i need them designed for approaches where the better fit into my farm business, not just where the designers feel it works for the railway.

You’ve completely missed the point. This hardly dignifies my response but now you’ve misquoted me and completely removed context to liken me TO DOUG FORD????

“Just farmland” I never said that, why are you putting words in my mouth? I said this is farmland not huge peaks and valleys, ie. it consists of mostly smooth grades and transitions. That was abundantly clear.

My whole point was driven home by my last sentence. Bridging over entire farms is just overengineering. No matter what size passage under the rail is hypothetically needed for farm equipment, why would a continuous bridge over an entire farm ever come cheaper?

 

[micheal_can]

Seems like they arent even interested in that.
Time is money as well. The longer they delay the construction due to these trivial matters the more expensive it will get and the longer it will take

Are they delaying construction or is it still on track? I feel this is within their planned time.

 

[cplchanb]

Are they delaying construction or is it still on track? I feel this is within their planned time.

It all depends on if they can quash the local nimbys which have only started to emerge.

 

[Thaboss]

It all depends on if they can quash the local nimbys which have only started to emerge.

At this moment there is nothing to quash. The appropriations bill that was passed is pretty comprehensive.

Only 2 things can legitimate derail ...get it lol, Alto!

1. Carney fails to gain an additional 4 years while bleeding popularity with the general population. Cons enter power and kill a project that hasnt really started in the eyes of the public.

2. Qb elect the PQ to a strong majority..


If the above doesnt happen then alto imo wont see politically induced delay because frankly, and I say this with much respect, the liberals aint worried about a bunch of angry rural farmers who were never voting for them to begin with, seriously impacting reelection. I also don't think there's enough of them that'll be actually impacted along the Row, to such a degree as to energize their community and stage impactful protest (think farm equipment blocking roads like they did in the netherlands or ottawa).

If the PQ fail to secure a strong majority, they too will put up a fake political fight with ottawa. I suspect ottawa lobs them some sweets, they fake grumble a bit, but allow the thing to be built because unless they win a referendum which I doubt they would in a world of trump, QB has zero legal avenues to stop construction.

 

[cplchanb]

At this moment there is nothing to quash. The appropriations bill that was passed is pretty comprehensive.

Only 2 things can legitimate derail ...get it lol, Alto!

1. Carney fails to gain an additional 4 years while bleeding popularity with the general population. Cons enter power and kill a project that hasnt really started in the eyes of the public.

2. Qb elect the PQ to a strong majority..


If the above doesnt happen then alto imo wont see politically induced delay because frankly, and I say this with much respect, the liberals aint worried about a bunch of angry rural farmers who were never voting for them to begin with, seriously impacting reelection. I also don't think there's enough of them that'll be actually impacted along the Row, to such a degree as to energize their community and stage impactful protest (think farm equipment blocking roads like they did in the netherlands or ottawa).

If the PQ fail to secure a strong majority, they too will put up a fake political fight with ottawa. I suspect ottawa lobs them some sweets, they fake grumble a bit, but allow the thing to be built because unless they win a referendum which I doubt they would in a world of trump, QB has zero legal avenues to stop construction.

Imo the main goal for the nimbys isnt to outright quash the plan, its to delay the progress until your above 2 listed items haplens. Never underestimate the power of lobbyists when it comes to the court of law. Dealing with lawsuits or requests for injunctions takes time and each time another motion gets introduced thats just another X amount of dollars and time wasted.

 

[micheal_can]

Imo the main goal for the nimbys isnt to outright quash the plan, its to delay the progress until your above 2 listed items haplens. Never underestimate the power of lobbyists when it comes to the court of law. Dealing with lawsuits or requests for injunctions takes time and each time another motion gets introduced thats just another X amount of dollars and time wasted.

... and people wonder why we cannot build things at a reasonable pace....

 

[StreetcarRider]

It appears Alto is officially an election issue in Quebec, with the CAQ supporting the project and accusing the PQ of having turned their back on Quebec City:

High-speed rail: Fréchette accuses PQ of turning back on Capitale-Nationale

Paul St-Pierre Plamondon’s Parti Québécois is 'turning its back' on the Capitale-Nationale region by rejecting the federal government’s high-speed rail project, according to Premier Christine Fréchette.

www.cp24.com

 

[cplchanb]

It appears Alto is officially an election issue in Quebec, with the CAQ supporting the project and accusing the PQ of having turned their back on Quebec City:

High-speed rail: Fréchette accuses PQ of turning back on Capitale-Nationale

Paul St-Pierre Plamondon’s Parti Québécois is 'turning its back' on the Capitale-Nationale region by rejecting the federal government’s high-speed rail project, according to Premier Christine Fréchette.

www.cp24.com

Having it as an election platform issue is always the most dangerous part. Lets just hope public support for the current and pro hsr parties dont wane