[PL1]

I think it's fair to attack someone's appeal to their own authority when they don't have the authority in the field their commenting on. Having a PHD in basket weaving doesn't give me authority to speak about quantum mechanics.

*Note* I'm not exactly an expert in this field either

That fair

 

[north-of-anything]

I'm fully aware of layering service and how it works. I don't think it makes a ton of sense for a small town the size of Smiths Falls which also already benefits from local train service. Anyone want to take a swing on how big the population centres are of Shinkansen Stations? Spoiler: They're not 10K spread out around a stop.

I support layering service for Toronto East/Peterborough/Fallowfield(?)/Mirabel/Laval whatever, but building additional stops in every town of 10K along the route is going to mean this thing isn't built until the 2050s.

I believe an ALTO stop near Smiths Falls would draw more traffic than the existing VIA station in the same place. It would be a more enticing service for the surrounding towns and hamlets, for one, but there may be a possibility for VIA-ALTO transfers for those headed to or from the Kingston/Brockville area.

I'm not of the opinion that these are must-haves, but they should absolutely be on the table if we want buy-in from rural communities along the route. And, of course, there is a limit: Lanark County has a good case for a station served by one train a day, but there's no good reason for any stops between there and Peterborough.

 

[kEiThZ]

I think it's fair to attack someone's appeal to their own authority when they don't have the authority in the field their commenting on. Having a PHD in basket weaving doesn't give me authority to speak about quantum mechanics.

*Note* I'm not exactly an expert in this field either

I have two graduate degrees in engineering. One was a Mech degree with a focus on aerodynamics and ballistics. The other is astro eng. I am, what would, colloquially be called, a "rocket scientist". And I don't ever use that to argue that I know more than actual practicing experts in their field. Even in my actual job, I don't argue over people on files I am not working on. Indeed, the number one thing education should teach you is to respect the educated and substantiated opinions of others. None of this, "I did my own research." BS.

This guy isn't adding to the conversation here. Even from a skeptic's perspective. He's spamming nonsense, arguing over people and trying to browbeat others into accepting his opinion. Above all, I am not sure how it's in the spirit of the literal name of this forum: Urban Toronto."

Send him packing. He can stick to the small town Facebook page and their circular discussion about those mean urban elites.

 

[jcam]

Maybe by the time construction begins between Ottawa and Toronto, Sheppard gets an extension east.

That CP corridor looks like it has 5 tracks crossing Sheppard. You'd definitely need some expropriation along the corridor from Agincourt through to Leaside before potentially taking over the Metrolinx track over Brickworks, IF you're going right downtown. But then if you're going to do a tunnel terminus near Union Station, the challenge becomes keeping the Alto corridor above the Don River flood plain, but also having the tunnel entrance above the flood plain, no? That severely limits where your tunnel portal can be. As you work through it, the Summerhill station seem a much easier path.

This begs the question though, how close can HSR and freight be on parallel tracks?

 

[kEiThZ]

I believe an ALTO stop near Smiths Falls would draw more traffic than the existing VIA station in the same place.

Sure. It becomes to Ottawa, what Peterborough is to Toronto.

It would be a more enticing service for the surrounding towns and hamlets, for one, but there may be a possibility for VIA-ALTO transfers for those headed to or from the Kingston/Brockville area.

Not sure, how much transfer traffic there will be. Why would somebody not just take the VIA train?

I'm not of the opinion that these are must-haves, but they should absolutely be on the table if we want buy-in from rural communities along the route.

Honestly don't think getting a station in Smiths Falls will change rural opinions. Just the opinion of those in Smiths Falls.

 

[north-of-anything]

Not sure, how much transfer traffic there will be. Why would somebody not just take the VIA train?

I don't know. Maybe there are foamers who would do it. Or maybe it ends up being faster and less delay-prone for people going to Toronto from Brockville. I'm just speculating wildly.

Honestly don't think getting a station in Smiths Falls will change rural opinions. Just the opinion of those in Smiths Falls.

Well, if those in Smiths Falls, Perth, Carleton Place etc are on the fence, then it might help. For those rural communities that have already decided that this is the worst thing that could ever happen to them, I wouldn't waste the energy.

 

[StreetcarRider]

Is this news good or bad?

"Montreal-Ottawa high-speed rail line could cross 1,700 properties, Alto predicts: Roughly 500 farmers could be affected, CEO says"

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/alto-rail-ottawa-montreal-route-property-map-9.7188144

 

[innsertnamehere]

Is this news good or bad?

"Montreal-Ottawa high-speed rail line could cross 1,700 properties, Alto predicts: Roughly 500 farmers could be affected, CEO says"

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/alto-rail-ottawa-montreal-route-property-map-9.7188144

really reminds me of when Ontario built the 407 East and the small storm of expropriation panic that happened then. A lot smaller scale of a project and a lot of the land was corporately owned by land-banking developers so a smaller overall reaction, but the eastern end of the highway ran through a lot of "regular farmers" lands which were not familiar with expropriation processes and put up a lot of political stink.

Expropriation issues are a tale as old as time in big infrastructure projects. I'm looking forward to Alto scoping their corridor width here which should quiet down a lot of the voices right now.. the current "plan" has people thinking they are going to expropriate half of central Ontario which does not help.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Over the past 3mos have talked to many people whose land could be expropriated. Some are already facing "property value blight". Their core tenant is that expropriation is acceptable if there are no other alternatives. Adjacent to the 401 severance was conducted 50 years ago. It was a gradual approach whereby some farmers could cross the highway as it was being constructed and even in the early years of operation ( not likely with ALTO). The benefits that offset the disruptions were shared along the corridor at each interchange. The even older CN kingston sub is obviously not grade seperated and has a great many agricultural crossings (2-3 times more than level crossings). Hence the farms are not severed, even now. Expropriation is not a large line item in terms of the amount of land required for the railway-however it is the incidental land/business severance that is expensive. As residential or agricultural land the buffer zone adjacent to the 401 is not particularly lucrative - it is ecologically disturbed, aesthetically poor, noisey and salty. It is already a severe ecological barrier. Please go to Google earth and follow the trace of the 401 and notice that the Northern side remains mainly open between Belleville and the PQ border, even in Kingston. This is what we have spent time doing. Michael Schabas has also become convinced of this. The 50m expropriation on the North side for 8-lane widening is ongoing with little fuss.

Holy Hyperbole Batman! Sorry but you haven't looked at a map of the 401 from Belleville East, or you are intentionally ignoring the facts. Much, and I mean MUCH of the land around the 401 is active farmland, there may be a small buffer of a few m with perhaps a culvert or greenery to provide a visual and audible buffer zone. It's not a barren salted desert, there are drains that take water from the road deck directly into municipal sewage systems (not to say that some salt doesn't make it's way off the road). Sure it's ecologically impacted, but that doesn't mean that the environment is open to EVEN MORE ecological damage just because some people don't want HSR in their region. AND STILL, the expropriation costs and grade separation costs for a Kingston Sub HSR route would be just as high if not higher than the ALTO options, if for no other reason than the fact that the land (in general) is more valuable in dollars than the land to the north. East of Peterborough much of the land is low yield scrub lands on the Canadian Shield.

 

[micheal_can]

I believe an ALTO stop near Smiths Falls would draw more traffic than the existing VIA station in the same place. It would be a more enticing service for the surrounding towns and hamlets, for one, but there may be a possibility for VIA-ALTO transfers for those headed to or from the Kingston/Brockville area.

I'm not of the opinion that these are must-haves, but they should absolutely be on the table if we want buy-in from rural communities along the route. And, of course, there is a limit: Lanark County has a good case for a station served by one train a day, but there's no good reason for any stops between there and Peterborough.

Smiths Falls could become a bedroom community if it had an ALTO station.

That CP corridor looks like it has 5 tracks crossing Sheppard. You'd definitely need some expropriation along the corridor from Agincourt through to Leaside before potentially taking over the Metrolinx track over Brickworks, IF you're going right downtown. But then if you're going to do a tunnel terminus near Union Station, the challenge becomes keeping the Alto corridor above the Don River flood plain, but also having the tunnel entrance above the flood plain, no? That severely limits where your tunnel portal can be. As you work through it, the Summerhill station seem a much easier path.

This begs the question though, how close can HSR and freight be on parallel tracks?

I'd assume you could pull up one set of tracks between them and that would be good enough spacing. I'd imagine that when the time comes, the engineers will lay out the areas

 

[micheal_can]

 

[Sergei]

View attachment 734358

This is a bit misleading here, railways and highways do not measure counts of people the same way. The MTO from what I can access easily publishes an average annual daily traffic number for each section but does not provide individual vehicle counts entering and exiting the highway the same way the Elizabeth line would for people and then on top of that collects no data on number of occupants per vehicle for the majority of the 401's length.
Not to say we shouldn't be building our regional transit to be able to do what the Elizabeth line does and ideally at a better price point than what we pay for it or what England does but this actual statement is likely wrong.

 

[urbanclient]

This is a bit misleading here, railways and highways do not measure counts of people the same way. The MTO from what I can access easily publishes an average annual daily traffic number for each section but does not provide individual vehicle counts entering and exiting the highway the same way the Elizabeth line would for people and then on top of that collects no data on number of occupants per vehicle for the majority of the 401's length.
Not to say we shouldn't be building our regional transit to be able to do what the Elizabeth line does and ideally at a better price point than what we pay for it or what England does but this actual statement is likely wrong.

I think it's a fair comparison, I remember seeing something say there were about 500 to 600k unique vehicles on the Toronto section of the 401 during summer weekdays. Elizabeth line ridership is over 800k on weekdays. It's not perfect, but it's better than comparing the 800+ km of the 401 to 117 km of the Elizabeth line.

A better comparison would be Line 1 TTC vs. the 401 in Toronto, they're closer in length.

 

[lenaitch]

It's always interesting to drive around Southern Ontario and note where a very straight hydro transmission line makes an abrupt turn or diversion around something. We may have forgotten who or why that happened, but there was likely a reason - in some cases the result of court challengers. The more of that we can avoid, the better, even if it costs a few minutes end to end.

A lot of the alignment decisions depend on who or what was there first. Obviously, strung cable doesn't do curves so changes do resemble traditional angular zig-zags. Avoiding certain existing properties may be done for technical or cost reasons. Interestingly, Hydro One recently doubled the capacity of a transmission corridor between Wawa and Thunder Bay ('east-west tie'). They diverged from the corridor of the existing circuit and carved a new ROW simply to avoid a National Park and FNT. It would have been cheaper to parallel it the whole way but they probably determined the line will be completed several years earlier.

I'm sure we can find a compromise here. What we're looking for is a reliable, standard-speed service that can serve these smaller communities without disrupting high-speed uses.

I've looked at some maps, and I think I see an existing CN alignment along the north shore of the St. Lawrence and Lake Ontario. If we opened a passenger rail service along this alignment, this would allow us to serve places like Smiths Falls, Brockville, Port Hope, Belleville, Cobourg, Trenton, etc. with minimal additional expense. We just need the will to build it.

Are you talking about the various CN subdivisions that make up the current VIA corridor service between Toronto and Montreal? That service is supposed to continue. ALTO is not proposing a
"standard speed service". The whole problem with the "reliable" part is what prompted HFR then ALTO in the first place. If you are proposing a passenger service on dedicated tracks within the CN corridor, you haven't been reading here very closely.

 

[lenaitch]

I have two graduate degrees in engineering. One was a Mech degree with a focus on aerodynamics and ballistics. The other is astro eng. I am, what would, colloquially be called, a "rocket scientist". And I don't ever use that to argue that I know more than actual practicing experts in their field. Even in my actual job, I don't argue over people on files I am not working on. Indeed, the number one thing education should teach you is to respect the educated and substantiated opinions of others. None of this, "I did my own research." BS.

This guy isn't adding to the conversation here. Even from a skeptic's perspective. He's spamming nonsense, arguing over people and trying to browbeat others into accepting his opinion. Above all, I am not sure how it's in the spirit of the literal name of this forum: Urban Toronto."

Send him packing. He can stick to the small town Facebook page and their circular discussion about those mean urban elites.