[innsertnamehere]

Putting a station anywhere but downtown would be irresponsible.

In Peterborough? Hardly. Sure, if it doesn't spiral costs, it would be ideal - but it won't be worth spending billions to dig a tunnel or a large time penalty with extended reduced speed track to do so.

Peterborough transit ridership is going to very small on the line - it's worth building a stop for, but not dropping immense sums to put it in what is a very modest downtown with no real transit connections or additional accessibility that could otherwise be provided to a suburban station.

 

[kEiThZ]

But you can't transfer to the legacy network except at one of the five stops.

Which is enough. There's no real way to build any other transfer that doesn't involve a significant diversion.

 

[kEiThZ]

That sounds very expensive.With the grade needed, it would be a long tunnel, and may mean the station is part of that tunnel.

Not quite. It can be trenched and only tunneled where absolutely needed. The fact that the ROW exists and the geometry is decent makes it a possible choice. My point here, is that people are way too fixated on the current configuration.

 

[micheal_can]

In Peterborough? Hardly. Sure, if it doesn't spiral costs, it would be ideal - but it won't be worth spending billions to dig a tunnel or a large time penalty with extended reduced speed track to do so.

Peterborough transit ridership is going to very small on the line - it's worth building a stop for, but not dropping immense sums to put it in what is a very modest downtown with no real transit connections or additional accessibility that could otherwise be provided to a suburban station.

Think long term.50 years or more. Imagine what Ottawa would be like with a downtown multimodal rail station.

 

[kEiThZ]

In Peterborough? Hardly. Sure, if it doesn't spiral costs, it would be ideal - but it won't be worth spending billions to dig a tunnel or a large time penalty with extended reduced speed track to do so.

Peterborough transit ridership is going to very small on the line - it's worth building a stop for, but not dropping immense sums to put it in what is a very modest downtown with no real transit connections or additional accessibility that could otherwise be provided to a suburban station.

They are trading off capital costs against impact on the whole line (and therefore the broader business case). I don't think it's a given at all that the cheaper option (net) is to bypass the centre of Peterborough. That may or may not be the case. But I think it's a stretch to assert that based on what is known.

 

[lenaitch]

HSR is going to need to have a dedicated corridor seperate from freight, at least for the 300km/h segments.

There are no details, but I imagine HSR will follow the Bala and Havelock subs up to north of the 407, where it will split off on a new alignment dedicated to HSR and with the right geometry for 300km/h operations.


On the shared space along Bala and Havelock, it would likely end up having its own separate, dedicated track as well. We'll have to see how implementation works. I imagine it would use the Don Branch bridge - but that the bridge will have to be replaced.

Is that your concept of how it would get to the CPKC Havelock Sub? Up the Bala Sub from Union to the 407 and then in the media/shoulder of the 407 to the CPKC Havelock Sub?

Not mine - theirs (above).

 

[lenaitch]

It's really pretty straight. You have a mayor already advocating to stick a $60-80B line in a field outside the city before there's even any talk of sticking a shovel in the ground. I think it's fair to call ignorance like that "not bright".

If people take offence, they are telling on themselves.

So a perspective different than yours is stupidity. Got it.

 

[crs1026]

Not quite. It can be trenched and only tunneled where absolutely needed. The fact that the ROW exists and the geometry is decent makes it a possible choice. My point here, is that people are way too fixated on the current configuration.

Tunnelling/trenching is an intriguing idea, and since HSR will be pricey anyways, one can give some latitiude to cost - what's another $500M in a project of this size?

However - looking at the map, I'm not so sure this is feasible in Peterborough. The deep tunnel would have to be 1.5 ish miles long, and would be at its deepest close to the downtown where one would most want the station. One would likely need another 1.5 miles of trenching to the west, to stay below grade through a built up area with several key cross streets. I have no knowledge about the geology and for the moment will assume it's favourable to tunnelling.

Not saying it can't be done, but the result would either be a deep tunnel station ($$$$$) or one would have to locate the station in a non-central location anyways. (Lansdowne Ave is feasible, and at least it's a main drag if not downtown).

For Peterborough, the saving grace of a station to the south is that the roadways are fairly good north-south, especially up the Parkway into town. Highway 7 gives good fast driving across the bottom side. So without judging anyone's civic vision, I can buy the lesser alternative of a station to the south. The distances are not so great that a taxi or Uber ride would be prohibitive, even to reach the north end. South end is convenient for Fleming College, although not so great for Trent U, but central PB is not that much better for Trent. Mostly, a south end station needs attention to last mile road and transit connections.

- Paul

 

[kEiThZ]

Tunnelling/trenching is an intriguing idea, and since HSR will be pricey anyways, one can give some latitiude to cost - what's another $500M in a project of this size?

It's a question of alternative cost and net benefit. I don't know what the answer is. But I know that nobody else here knows that either. I don't think anything can ruled in/out either way.

However - looking at the map, I'm not so sure this is feasible in Peterborough. The deep tunnel would have to be 1.5 ish miles long, and would be at its deepest close to the downtown where one would most want the station. One would likely need another 1.5 miles of trenching to the west, to stay below grade through a built up area with several key cross streets. I have no knowledge about the geology and for the moment will assume it's favourable to tunnelling.

I don't think tunnels are expensive per se. It's how they are built and what they contain. In this case, a lot of it may be possible by simply open cut, and/or trenching.

Again though, I don't presume to know the right answer. I'm just cautioning against assumptions. We have no idea how this will turn out.

 

[Natika33]

It's a question of alternative cost and net benefit. I don't know what the answer is. But I know that nobody else here knows that either. I don't think anything can ruled in/out either way.



I don't think tunnels are expensive per se. It's how they are built and what they contain. In this case, a lot of it may be possible by simply open cut, and/or trenching.

Again though, I don't presume to know the right answer. I'm just cautioning against assumptions. We have no idea how this will turn out.

High speed trains cause a sonic boom when going through tunnels which requires extra dampening and may still be considered loud for many people. I'm not sure Canadians, particularly small town Canadians who often move to small towns for the quiet, would be okay with that.

Saw some interesting stuff about bullet trains on NHK last week. Can't link sorry, so please search:

The 60th Anniversary of the Tokaido Shinkansen, Part 1 - Japan Railway Journal​

89K views · 2 weeks ago...more

NHK WORLD-JAPAN​

3.11M

 

[lenaitch]

High speed trains cause a sonic boom when going through tunnels which requires extra dampening and may still be considered loud for many people. I'm not sure Canadians, particularly small town Canadians who often move to small towns for the quiet, would be okay with that.

Saw some interesting stuff about bullet trains on NHK last week. Can't link sorry, so please search:

The 60th Anniversary of the Tokaido Shinkansen, Part 1 - Japan Railway Journal​

89K views · 2 weeks ago...more

NHK WORLD-JAPAN​

3.11M

Assuming Peterborough remains a station stop as announced, high speed in the local area won't be an issue.

 

[Natika33]

Assuming Peterborough remains a station stop as announced, high speed in the local area won't be an issue.

Sorry, I thought there was talk of trains by-passing Peterborough sometimes. I suppose they could still slow down to go through an underground tunnel that housed the station, but that's not what I experienced with the shinkansens in Japan - they still go through by-passed stations with incredible speed.

 

[MisterF]

Sorry, I thought there was talk of trains by-passing Peterborough sometimes. I suppose they could still slow down to go through an underground tunnel that housed the station, but that's not what I experienced with the shinkansens in Japan - they still go through by-passed stations with incredible speed.

High speed trains do slow down significantly in urban areas in many cases. The high speed trains in Italy slow way down going through Florence and Bologna, IIRC, even when they don't stop. Come to think of it, Milan to Rome is almost identical to Toronto to Montreal on Alto in both length and travel time. So the travel times proposed are doable with some urban slowdowns. Even if the line goes through Peterborough with extensive grade separations and/or a tunnel that doesn't meant that trains are going to be going 300 km/h through town.

 

[kEiThZ]

High speed trains cause a sonic boom when going through tunnels which requires extra dampening and may still be considered loud for many people. I'm not sure Canadians, particularly small town Canadians who often move to small towns for the quiet, would be okay with that.

I'm aware. I'm an aerospace engineer by trade. I also know what trains aren't traveling at full speed while approaching a stop in an urban area.

 

[kEiThZ]

Come to think of it, Milan to Rome is almost identical to Toronto to Montreal on Alto in both length and travel time.

If we're talking hourly service (at least at launch), it's not very likely any stops will be skipped.