[lenaitch]

The current CPKC line and station is two blocks (230m) from the street that is considered the southern start of "downtown". I agree that a station will be a significant development generator; either redevelopment of the area around a downtown station or new growth around a 'suburban' one. Unless there is some expectation of wide-area rural transit or a fantasy of reactivating rural rail lines, there will be need for significant parking.

The current CPKC and/or the route proposed for HFR using the old O&Q may or may not form the basis for HSR, but both ALTO and the government's pressers say Peterborough is getting a station it is safe to assume at the point that the route will be somewhere proximate to the city.

A question for anyone: Does current HSR anywhere include a moveable bridge? If the current CPKC alignment is used, it will be necessary and any other route will necessitate elevation or tunneling to avoid one.

 

[T3G]

As an aside, ALTO hasn't done much in the way of SEO. It doesn't populate highly on Google searches despite all the coverage.

I wager a lot of people will hear about it and roll their eyes as just another Canadian vapourware project.

And who can blame them?

 

[Bordercollie]

I wager a lot of people will hear about it and roll their eyes as just another Canadian vapourware project.

And who can blame them?

100%

 

[ownthesky]

The current CPKC line and station is two blocks (230m) from the street that is considered the southern start of "downtown". I agree that a station will be a significant development generator; either redevelopment of the area around a downtown station or new growth around a 'suburban' one. Unless there is some expectation of wide-area rural transit or a fantasy of reactivating rural rail lines, there will be need for significant parking.

The current CPKC and/or the route proposed for HFR using the old O&Q may or may not form the basis for HSR, but both ALTO and the government's pressers say Peterborough is getting a station it is safe to assume at the point that the route will be somewhere proximate to the city.

A question for anyone: Does current HSR anywhere include a moveable bridge? If the current CPKC alignment is used, it will be necessary and any other route will necessitate elevation or tunneling to avoid one.

The Acela has a couple. It crosses the ancient Susquehanna bridge at a snail's pace, but it's currently being replaced. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amtrak_Susquehanna_River_Bridge

Portal Bridge as well, also being replaced: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal_Bridge It's one of the biggest chokepoints on the Northeast Corridor and should have been replaced many years ago.

I think that no train can use a moveable bridge at anywhere near high speeds because fundamentally, a moveable bridge can't use welded rail as they all require a joint. That joint needs tolerances to allow for the bridge to work, which will always force a train to take it at low speed. Apparently the Portal Bridge is notorious for requiring workers to occasionally hammer the rail joint together by hand on bad days when it won't come together properly.

 

[ShonTron]

I'm betting Smith Falls must be feeling pretty salty about this whole affair. A stop there would have turned the train into an inefficient milk run, but they were a fixture of the former "HFR" plans.

As an aside, ALTO hasn't done much in the way of SEO. It doesn't populate highly on Google searches despite all the coverage.

Again, there's no reason why you can't put a stop in at Smiths Falls. It just has to be built where stopping trains can easily get into a station track separate from the express through trains.

 

[kEiThZ]

At some point he and his party will need to provide a serious answer as to their position on this project. Just dismissing it as a Trudeau "photo-op" won't fly with Ontario and Quebec voters.

No voter really cares about policy these days. Elections are all about vibes.

 

[CapitalSeven]

Smith's Falls will retain its stop on the legacy service between Kingston and Ottawa. There's no need to have the HSR stop there. That would entail slowing down, stopping at the station, then reversing out for the last half hour of the trip to Ottawa, all for a handful of passengers.

 

[smallspy]

I think that no train can use a moveable bridge at anywhere near high speeds because fundamentally, a moveable bridge can't use welded rail as they all require a joint. That joint needs tolerances to allow for the bridge to work, which will always force a train to take it at low speed. Apparently the Portal Bridge is notorious for requiring workers to occasionally hammer the rail joint together by hand on bad days when it won't come together properly.

The rail and joints are not what limits the speed of the trains over the bridges.

The ability for the trains to stop in time does.

In the case of many of the bridges on the Northeast Corridor, they have very low speed limits because the equipment is so old that they can no longer adequately handle the forces involved when trains pass at higher speeds. This is a common occurrence all around the world when infrastructure starts to fall apart.

Upon replacement the speeds will increase quite a bit depending on the signalling system and sightlines (I believe the Portal Bridge is designed to allow for 60mph, for instance). But the ultimate factor is whether the trains can stop in time in the event of the bridge opening. As much of anything that's a function of the train's speed, so the lower it goes the easier it is to have it stop in time.

Dan

 

[Bordercollie]

In other countries that have high speed rail, easy connections to other modes of transportation feeds the high speed rail.

Similar to how greyhound used to work. The main hub routes link to more rural routes. Then they cut the rural routes which killed the whole thing.

The issue with this proposal is that you can't transfer to a slower train to hit the stops in-between. I guess you could once you get to Toronto or Ottawa. But it doesn't help anyone get to Kingston or Brockville.

 

[crs1026]

The issue with this proposal is that you can't transfer to a slower train to hit the stops in-between. I guess you could once you get to Toronto or Ottawa. But it doesn't help anyone get to Kingston or Brockville.

There really aren’t any local stops on the Alto except Peterboro and Perth. Smiths Falls, Brockville, and Kingston will all depend on the legacy service. Neither Alto nor Ottawa have said anything new sbout that service, despite the original RFP stating that the chosen proponent would contract to operate both.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

I'm very keen on Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal HSR.

I especially think they should build Ottawa-Montreal and get it into service first, with Ottawa-Toronto built and in service second, and Montreal-QC last.

Assuming Alto happens, here are my two cents on what might come next:

• The federal government should have a plan for good, rapid transit between capital cities, including any appropriate technology
  • Alto will connect three capitals: Ottawa, Toronto and Quebec City
  • The capitals of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta might one day make sense for HSR
  • HSR is not necessarily an appropriate technology for all capital-to-capital connections
• The provincial governments should have a plan for good, rapid transit within provinces, including any appropriate technology
  • Alberta is already planning Calgary-Edmonton HSR
  • Ontario can reinstate the plan for Toronto-Windsor HSR
  • To get provincial HSR plans done will depend on a lot of things, including, IMHO, Alto getting built and in service
• If we make friends with the US again, and if they eventually adopt HSR, the federal government should likely handle cross-border connections

It would be nice to see HSR between Montreal and Ottawa open sooner,however, doing so will mess things up for everything in and out of Montreal. We can assume Alto will own the tracks of the HSR in their entirety. Based on that assumption, how do you deal with the needed tracks from Coteau Montreal? The sections in and out of Montreal and Toronto may be the biggest challenges to find a route suitable for it.

 

[micheal_can]

The current CPKC line and station is two blocks (230m) from the street that is considered the southern start of "downtown". I agree that a station will be a significant development generator; either redevelopment of the area around a downtown station or new growth around a 'suburban' one. Unless there is some expectation of wide-area rural transit or a fantasy of reactivating rural rail lines, there will be need for significant parking.

The current CPKC and/or the route proposed for HFR using the old O&Q may or may not form the basis for HSR, but both ALTO and the government's pressers say Peterborough is getting a station it is safe to assume at the point that the route will be somewhere proximate to the city.

A question for anyone: Does current HSR anywhere include a moveable bridge? If the current CPKC alignment is used, it will be necessary and any other route will necessitate elevation or tunneling to avoid one.

The case where to put the station in Peterborough should be the same case as to other locales. For instance, why not put the Montreal station anywhere but at Central? Or, why not put the Toronto station anywhere but at Union? If those had been proposed, the amount of push back on here,and in general would be quite high. Something we ignored with airports, but are slowly learning is that a major connection to your city should be a hub of transportation, and in an accessible area. So, while a downtown Peterborough station may have some challenges, those challenges are not likely that insurmountable to not do it. It may be as simple as taking the existing ROW, removing the bridge, building a bridge high enough up to allow good clearances for boats, building the berm back as far as needed on both sides for that height, and building a station on that berm with space for both local and intercity buses. That berm can just be an elevated guide way like other places. In the scale of this project, that would not be that expensive.

Again, there's no reason why you can't put a stop in at Smiths Falls. It just has to be built where stopping trains can easily get into a station track separate from the express through trains.

There are videos of trains passing at speed at some local stations. Granted, not at 300km/hr, but it could be done. It would also be at a curve, so the train would be going slower there anyway.


For this project, look 100years into the future and ask whether the challenges we think exist are going to matter then. For example,I would bet most people here would rather see a downtown Ottawa station, but that is unlikely to happen.

 

[sixrings]

The case where to put the station in Peterborough should be the same case as to other locales. For instance, why not put the Montreal station anywhere but at Central? Or, why not put the Toronto station anywhere but at Union? If those had been proposed, the amount of push back on here,and in general would be quite high. Something we ignored with airports, but are slowly learning is that a major connection to your city should be a hub of transportation, and in an accessible area. So, while a downtown Peterborough station may have some challenges, those challenges are not likely that insurmountable to not do it. It may be as simple as taking the existing ROW, removing the bridge, building a bridge high enough up to allow good clearances for boats, building the berm back as far as needed on both sides for that height, and building a station on that berm with space for both local and intercity buses. That berm can just be an elevated guide way like other places. In the scale of this project, that would not be that expensive.



There are videos of trains passing at speed at some local stations. Granted, not at 300km/hr, but it could be done. It would also be at a curve, so the train would be going slower there anyway.


For this project, look 100years into the future and ask whether the challenges we think exist are going to matter then. For example,I would bet most people here would rather see a downtown Ottawa station, but that is unlikely to happen.

I take the lrt from the via station downtown all the time in Ottawa and it’s like a 5-10 minute ride. It’s perfectly fine. I just wish I didn’t need to pay a second fare.

 

[micheal_can]

I take the lrt from the via station downtown all the time in Ottawa and it’s like a 5-10 minute ride. It’s perfectly fine. I just wish I didn’t need to pay a second fare.

Now imagine that elsewhere. Like Toronto, Montreal, or the potential Peterborough.

 

[Bordercollie]

I take the lrt from the via station downtown all the time in Ottawa and it’s like a 5-10 minute ride. It’s perfectly fine. I just wish I didn’t need to pay a second fare.

Hold on. We don't know if they will be sharing the same station. The current station is barely enough to support the trains it does today ( I'm talking about Ottawa's).