[kEiThZ]

The government's release talks about speeds "up to 300km/hour". I suspect a lot of the old O&Q ROW between Havelock and Glen Tay will be unsuitable for adaptation for those speeds. Even for the flatter, more open portions, cutting through towns, villages and settlements won't be suitable, even for lower 'high speeds'. I'm not surprised the mayor of Peterborough doesn't want the line cutting through the city. With Pickering now dead, he no doubt has an eye to the expansion potential with having passenger rail near their airport.

No issues building outside town. He'll probably get what he wants. But he's a fool to think Peterborough wouldn't be better off with a station in town. Really shows how little these people understand HSR. His city would be 40 mins from downtown Toronto and 1:45 hrs from downtown Ottawa. He doesn't seem to understand the implications of that for his city's economy. If I were in his shoes, I'd be pushing to get it downtown as much as possible.

 

[crs1026]

I see zero potential for the main line for HSR to run along the existing CPKC row thru Peterboro.... it would demand extensive grade separation and/or train speed restrictions. One has to assume a bypass and possibly the CPKC route as a secondary route used by "local" trains.
Peterboro's downtown has been on a downturn for years, and given the modal share of local trips by transit vs auto in town, the mayor's instinct is probably accurate that the preferred last mile for most users will be by car - so having to drive downtown may be less convenient than driving to the outskirts.
That's the absolute opposite to what I would want to see happen - but I don't detect the kind of citybuilding vision or political will in Peterboro to structure a downtown revival and make HSR part of that. I sure hope I am wrong, but I wouldn't bet on that.

- Paul

 

[kEiThZ]

I see zero potential for the main line for HSR to run along the existing CPKC row thru Peterboro

Running through downtown =\= using CPKC necessarily. People are way too fixated on existing track when developers have said no alignment has been chosen. Best to think of the list of cities listed as communities to be served. And not to think of existing track between them.

 

[kEiThZ]

Peterboro's downtown has been on a downturn for years, and given the modal share of local trips by transit vs auto in town, the mayor's instinct is probably accurate that the preferred last mile for most users will be by car - so having to drive downtown may be less convenient than driving to the outskirts.
That's the absolute opposite to what I would want to see happen - but I don't detect the kind of citybuilding vision or political will in Peterboro to structure a downtown revival and make HSR part of that. I sure hope I am wrong, but I wouldn't bet on that.

You're absolutely right. But it's just so ridiculous how ignorant and small minded these politicians are.

 

[crs1026]

Running through downtown =\= using CPKC necessarily. People are way too fixated on existing track when developers have said no alignment has been chosen. Best to think of the list of cities listed as communities to be served. And not to think of existing track between them.

Fair enough, although any truly new routing through an already developed urban area will have a very high pricetag in land acquisition. One would expect the developers to look for what corridors may already exist (either as operating rail lines, or railbanked ones, or trails, greenspace, hydro and utility corridors, etc) and ask if these fit the bill given a much lower price tag.

In Peterboro's case, the CPKC line is probably the prime comparison to a new corridor, thanks to its location, its existing crossing of the Trent, and its availability.

- Paul

 

[crs1026]

But it's just so ridiculous how ignorant and small minded these politicians are.

Voters select those politicians because they offer what the voter wants. Amazing how people prefer big-box malls on the outskirts and undense suburbs over vibrant downtowns that don't require parking lots because people walk or come by transit.

- Paul

 

[treplow]

A lot of interesting points being raised here about station placement, particularly regarding Kingston and Peterborough. I think the key issue with both locations is striking a balance between accessibility and network efficiency.

For Kingston, while it's unfortunate that there's no dedicated station, the reality is that true high-speed rail works best when it minimizes stops. A Kingston station would be great for locals, but if it adds extra travel time for Toronto-Montreal/Ottawa express services, it weakens the whole corridor. This is similar to how many European high-speed rail systems operate, where secondary cities are often served via existing regional rail networks rather than direct HSR stops.

As for Peterborough, I see both sides of the argument. Yes, a downtown station would be ideal for economic development, but from an operational standpoint, it’s tricky. The alignment needs to be as straight as possible for speed, and curving into a built-up downtown area introduces challenges. We see this already with GO trains running directly through Guelph etc. That said, one potential compromise could be designing the system with future expansion in mind. maybe a more central Peterborough station could be viable down the road as the region grows.

Ultimately it's important that station placement be forward-thinking. We don’t want to compromise HSR efficiency with unnecessary stops, but we also need to consider long-term urban integration.

 

[Bordercollie]

A station near the Holiday Inn would be ideal.

 

[robmausser]

A lot of interesting points being raised here about station placement, particularly regarding Kingston and Peterborough. I think the key issue with both locations is striking a balance between accessibility and network efficiency.

For Kingston, while it's unfortunate that there's no dedicated station, the reality is that true high-speed rail works best when it minimizes stops. A Kingston station would be great for locals, but if it adds extra travel time for Toronto-Montreal/Ottawa express services, it weakens the whole corridor. This is similar to how many European high-speed rail systems operate, where secondary cities are often served via existing regional rail networks rather than direct HSR stops.

As for Peterborough, I see both sides of the argument. Yes, a downtown station would be ideal for economic development, but from an operational standpoint, it’s tricky. The alignment needs to be as straight as possible for speed, and curving into a built-up downtown area introduces challenges. We see this already with GO trains running directly through Guelph etc. That said, one potential compromise could be designing the system with future expansion in mind. maybe a more central Peterborough station could be viable down the road as the region grows.

Ultimately it's important that station placement be forward-thinking. We don’t want to compromise HSR efficiency with unnecessary stops, but we also need to consider long-term urban integration.

You would probably find that a HSR not in downtown Peterborough would effectively move the downtown. Its that powerful of a tool for development.

A city thats now an hour from Toronto is now a city that will double in size. All that new build will be as close to the HSR station as possible. That will bring new commerce. Suddenly you will find theres no reason to move the station, the town moved next to it.

 

[ShonTron]

Even just a spur line for Peterborough that goes downtown from the Toronto direction should be fine for a regional/commuter service. Just upgrade the track for reasonable speeds (even 50 MPH) and electrify it. I would like to see a station at Pontypool as well, with the Toronto-Peterborough local trains having a dedicated track and platform. You just ensure that the schedule is designed for local trains to pull on and off the mainline without slowing down through high-speed through trains.

I would expect through trains to pass south of Peterborough; a station by The Parkway and 7/115 would be fine for anyone headed towards Ottawa and Montreal. The intercity buses (Rider Express and Flixbus) already stop on the south side close to the 7/115.

 

[rbt]

You would probably find that a HSR not in downtown Peterborough would effectively move the downtown. Its that powerful of a tool for development.

A city thats now an hour from Toronto is now a city that will double in size. All that new build will be as close to the HSR station as possible. That will bring new commerce. Suddenly you will find theres no reason to move the station, the town moved next to it.

Agreed, especially if the federal governments century initiative [~1.3% population growth rate through year 2100] results in a GTA population of 16 million or higher around 2050. Demand for cheaper but nearby housing will be huge; and highway congestion even more massive.

 

[Bordercollie]

Even just a spur line for Peterborough that goes downtown from the Toronto direction should be fine for a regional/commuter service. Just upgrade the track for reasonable speeds (even 50 MPH) and electrify it. I would like to see a station at Pontypool as well, with the Toronto-Peterborough local trains having a dedicated track and platform. You just ensure that the schedule is designed for local trains to pull on and off the mainline without slowing down through high-speed through trains.

I would expect through trains to pass south of Peterborough; a station by The Parkway and 7/115 would be fine for anyone headed towards Ottawa and Montreal. The intercity buses (Rider Express and Flixbus) already stop on the south side close to the 7/115.

I mean you could have a "shuttle" train to the High speed train. Use different platforms to ensure that they don't interfere with each other.

 

[guavadelic]

We're already seeing pushback from Poilievre.

At some point he and his party will need to provide a serious answer as to their position on this project. Just dismissing it as a Trudeau "photo-op" won't fly with Ontario and Quebec voters.

 

[jje1000]

A lot of interesting points being raised here about station placement, particularly regarding Kingston and Peterborough. I think the key issue with both locations is striking a balance between accessibility and network efficiency.

For Kingston, while it's unfortunate that there's no dedicated station, the reality is that true high-speed rail works best when it minimizes stops. A Kingston station would be great for locals, but if it adds extra travel time for Toronto-Montreal/Ottawa express services, it weakens the whole corridor. This is similar to how many European high-speed rail systems operate, where secondary cities are often served via existing regional rail networks rather than direct HSR stops.

As for Peterborough, I see both sides of the argument. Yes, a downtown station would be ideal for economic development, but from an operational standpoint, it’s tricky. The alignment needs to be as straight as possible for speed, and curving into a built-up downtown area introduces challenges. We see this already with GO trains running directly through Guelph etc. That said, one potential compromise could be designing the system with future expansion in mind. maybe a more central Peterborough station could be viable down the road as the region grows.

Ultimately it's important that station placement be forward-thinking. We don’t want to compromise HSR efficiency with unnecessary stops, but we also need to consider long-term urban integration.

I think there is a strong argument for building an entirely new, 100-200K city around an efficient HSR station outside of Peterborough, instead of trying to weave an HSR into the existing city fabric and encountering unfavorable geometry while also trying to refit a city of 80K for a much larger population and inevitably encountering (valid) opposition along the way.

Not that it's too far out there- the majority of GTA suburbs are essentially agglomerations of old farming villages, with their downtown cores (existing and envisioned) built outside of those old villages. Likewise, I think that a new Kitchener-sized urban centre is actually much-needed east of the GTA.

On an aside, with Air Canada and CDPQ as Cadence partners (along with SNCF's habits), I wonder if the Montreal station would be located at Dorval?

It 1.) Avoids the expense of tunneling out of downtown Montreal (with the Mount Royal Tunnel no longer available) and instead allows the HSR to be more easily routed north of Mount Royal into Laval and the North Shore; 2.) Allows for direct connections to Air Canada international flights at Dorval; and 3.) Funnels downtown travellers onto the CDPQ-owned REM.

 

[ownthesky]

I'm betting Smith Falls must be feeling pretty salty about this whole affair. A stop there would have turned the train into an inefficient milk run, but they were a fixture of the former "HFR" plans.

As an aside, ALTO hasn't done much in the way of SEO. It doesn't populate highly on Google searches despite all the coverage.