[Urban Sky]

Think about it, the winning bidder will get the contact to maintain the trains and infrastructure for 30 years. I think that's pretty good incentive, building parts and materials, accessories for 30 years.

You can’t sustain an entire factory on producing spare parts for a fleet of only 300 cars, even if it wasn’t for the fact that almost all these parts are produced by suppliers and only assembled at said factory…

 

[micheal_can]

You can’t sustain an entire factory on producing spare parts for a fleet of only 300 cars, even if it wasn’t for the fact that almost all these parts are produced by suppliers and only assembled at said factory…

How many per year would be needed to sustain a plant for decades?

 

[lenaitch]

Think about it, the winning bidder will get the contact to maintain the trains and infrastructure for 30 years. I think that's pretty good incentive, building parts and materials, accessories for 30 years.

Maintenance and assembly are completely different.

 

[crs1026]

You can’t sustain an entire factory on producing spare parts for a fleet of only 300 cars, even if it wasn’t for the fact that almost all these parts are produced by suppliers and only assembled at said factory…

Ontario has had it lucky in the sense that the GO bilevel fleet is big enough to create an almost never ending demand for midlife rebuilds for the fleet. I suspect that is not sustainable because
a) At some point the fleet will need replacement and life extensions will cease and
b) If interprovincial trade barriers are removed, Ontario will have difficulty keeping the rebuilding work in Ontario.

If you look at the history of the past thirty years, holding on to a sustainable stream of heavy rebuild and new railcar fabrication work has proved unsustainable in Canada .... Point St Charles, Moncton, CAD, North Bay, Thunder Bay, Kingston, Brampton, La Pocatiere........it's a hand to mouth industry.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

Ontario has had it lucky in the sense that the GO bilevel fleet is big enough to create an almost never ending demand for midlife rebuilds for the fleet. I suspect that is not sustainable because
a) At some point the fleet will need replacement and life extensions will cease and
b) If interprovincial trade barriers are removed, Ontario will have difficulty keeping the rebuilding work in Ontario.

If you look at the history of the past thirty years, holding on to a sustainable stream of heavy rebuild and new railcar fabrication work has proved unsustainable in Canada .... Point St Charles, Moncton, CAD, North Bay, Thunder Bay, Kingston, Brampton........it's a hand to mouth industry.

- Paul

I personally know the North Bay shops. They do everything as ''one off''.. There are no assembly lines. The could, but don't do anything new, partly because the costs would be too high. It is a repair shop, much like the TMC and MMC is. In the past20 years,they did build a new paint shop for the GO coaches.

 

[Bordercollie]

Ontario has had it lucky in the sense that the GO bilevel fleet is big enough to create an almost never ending demand for midlife rebuilds for the fleet. I suspect that is not sustainable because
a) At some point the fleet will need replacement and life extensions will cease and
b) If interprovincial trade barriers are removed, Ontario will have difficulty keeping the rebuilding work in Ontario.

If you look at the history of the past thirty years, holding on to a sustainable stream of heavy rebuild and new railcar fabrication work has proved unsustainable in Canada .... Point St Charles, Moncton, CAD, North Bay, Thunder Bay, Kingston, Brampton........it's a hand to mouth industry.

- Paul

Those cars were built and designed in thunder Bay so why would you not be able to build new ones there? New ones are built there now...

 

[crs1026]

Those cars were built and designed in thunder Bay so why would you not be able to build new ones there? New ones are built there now...

If GO continues to want that model of bilevel, sure. Nobody else will make the investment to set up a line to make bilevels - a proprietary design.

The design spec will change with electrification and greater 2WAD. There is no guarantee that Thunder Bay will win the bid for the next gen car. Or that they can secure any other contract with other properties. it's a bid by bid proposition.

- Paul

 

[lenaitch]

And still doesn't address building power units, which we don't do.

 

[Bordercollie]

And still doesn't address building power units, which we don't do.

We used to in London.

 

[lenaitch]

We used to in London.

Yup, as well as in Montreal. We used to do a lot of things, but there are corporate and economic realities in a more globalized manufacturing world. Can you can think of some secret sauce that would make Ontario or Canada particularly attractive to make an industry want to spend money to build a manufacturing plant here? It's not likely to happen simply based on the size of our domestic market.

Analyze why it is "used to".

The alternative is to create either a publicly-owned or private industry that is beholden to public money to keep it alive. We've tried that.

 

[Bordercollie]

Yup, as well as in Montreal. We used to do a lot of things, but there are corporate and economic realities in a more globalized manufacturing world. Can you can think of some secret sauce that would make Ontario or Canada particularly attractive to make an industry want to spend money to build a manufacturing plant here? It's not likely to happen simply based on the size of our domestic market.

Analyze why it is "used to".

The alternative is to create either a publicly-owned or private industry that is beholden to public money to keep it alive. We've tried that.

Well you know we did build a LRT manufacturing plant in Brampton, so if there is demand it's not impossible.

Could they not build them in the Thunder Bay or Quebec plant?

 

[smallspy]

And still doesn't address building power units, which we don't do.

They absolutely do. Subways, streetcars.....

Dan

 

[Urban Sky]

Well you know we did build a LRT manufacturing plant in Brampton, so if there is demand it's not impossible.

Could they not build them in the Thunder Bay or Quebec plant?

Which part of “they can only build for orders they actually win” did you not understand? Canada is a signatory of various trade agreements so it can’t just give contracts to its favoured local suppliers...

 

[crs1026]

Well you know we did build a LRT manufacturing plant in Brampton, so if there is demand it's not impossible.

Could they not build them in the Thunder Bay or Quebec plant?

The Alstom plant (and Kingston and Thunder Bay LRT lines, for that matter) simply assembles components that are shipped in from various suppliers. Simplistically, it's a kit builder shop.
Putting together a plant to manufacture the raw components and carbodies for railcars is a different matter. Thunder Bay got lucky when the early-80s investment in the double decker line led to a long string of repeat orders.... that is an incredible success story, but not likely to be repeated. How many other buyers signed up for TR subway cars , for instance?
The same is true for Hornell, Barre, and other US builders. And Mexico. It's feast to famine.
One can play what-if and wonder if Bombardier could have stuck around as a major player, but that's like wondering if the Milwaukee Road or the Rock Island should have stuck around as railroads. It is what it is.

- Paul

 

[crs1026]

We used to in London.

Ask Boise about that one. Or Erie.

- Paul