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Changing the phase order would makes absolutely zero difference to streetcar delay. If the light starts 15 seconds earlier and ends 15 seconds earlier you have exactly the same green time and exactly the same delay.
That makes sense, and would be true if arrivals at the traffic light were random. But in my experience the streetcar is almost always sitting there before the light changes. It would be interesting to go through real data though.

Though by putting the streetcar phase first, there'd be less issues with cars still leaving the intersection and it would be easier to predict when you'll need the light green.

A better idea - if you put in a real intelligent system, why not let it choose either before or after in realtime, based on what works best for streetcars on that particular cycle.
 
That makes sense, and would be true if arrivals at the traffic light were random. But in my experience the streetcar is almost always sitting there before the light changes. It would be interesting to go through real data though.
If arrivals at the traffic signal are random and the light is red 60% of the time (which is the case at major intersections along Spadina), then 60% of the streetcars will be sitting there before the light changes.

All downtown signals operate on a fixed cycle length (except during TSP calls), so if you want to change the offset from one signal to another, you change that by changing the programmed 'offset' value. No need to change the phase order.

In general, signal coordination wouldn't work well for streetcars if there are stops within the block, since variable dwell times basically randomize the arrivals at the next signal. It's also worth noting that coordination typically only works in one direction, not both.

Nevertheless, there are some cases where signal coordination can be used to provide better-than-random offsets for streetcars. For example during the King Pilot there was a westbound green wave from Simcoe to John, since there are no westbound stops in that block. I observed the John St intersection for an hour one afternoon, and every westbound streetcar with a headway over 90 seconds got a green light, thanks to a combination of coordination and signal priority. There was also an eastbound green wave from York to Bay, but since there's no TSP at King & Bay, streetcars could still get stopped at Bay if the operator drove slowly or there was some kind of disruption between the intersections (e.g. a car parking).

I also requested to introduce a green wave for streetcars on Cherry Street, since there are blocks with no stops and the intersection spacing and cycle lengths happened to be ideal for a perfect green wave for streetcars in both directions. But the City denied the request on the basis that it would make the coordination worse for cars. As far as I'm aware, the King pilot was the only time the City has specifically optimized coordination for streetcars rather than cars.

Though by putting the streetcar phase first, there'd be less issues with cars still leaving the intersection and it would be easier to predict when you'll need the light green.
By that logic, putting the streetcar phase first would make the situation even worse, since the previous phase would be the cross-street phase, which lets far more cars into the intersection than a left turn phase. It would also make it harder to provide a green at the right time since it's a lot easier to end a left turn phase than a thru phase, since left turn phases don't have a Flashing Don't Walk.
A better idea - if you put in a real intelligent system, why not let it choose either before or after in realtime, based on what works best for streetcars on that particular cycle.
That's known as phase rotation and the TTC's current priority system can apparently do that, but it has never been approved by the City. The problem with phase insertion is that in a cycle where the thru phase comes before the left turns, it serves its full (quite long) duration, so there's a very long period where no left turn phase is served. That could cause the left turn queue to spill back into the thru lane, strangling the intersection throughput. Especially where the side-street is relatively minor, it's less of a nuisance to just serve a short streetcar phase before going to the left turns, rather than the full thru phase duration. And phase insertion works just as well for streetcars.
 
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What needs to be done to get rid of the the 10 km/h limit? Both based on actual logic and evidence AND based on the reality of the TTC?
1. Dual-leaf switches to reduce the chance of derailment.
2. A detection system that requests the switch direction well in advance of the streetcar's arrival (the current system requires the streetcar to stop on a radio receiver right before the switch to request the direction)
3. A signal to confirm that the switch has successfully changed and locked in the correct direction (currently operators need to stop and visually check that the switch has properly changed)

Fun fact, the switches in Leslie Yard are already dual-leaf with confirmation lights, so streetcars can proceed through them without stopping, unlike the switches on the actual streetcar routes. There is no need for a switch detection system there since the switches are centrally controlled by a dispatcher.
 
What needs to be done to get rid of the the 10 km/h limit? Both based on actual logic and evidence AND based on the reality of the TTC?
To be completely honest - I don't know. Perhaps the new leadership will take a critical eye at all of the rules on all of the modes, and try and weed out the nonsensical ones.

But that's being exceedingly optimistic. I'm expecting the status quo.

1. Dual-leaf switches to reduce the chance of derailment.
2. A detection system that requests the switch direction well in advance of the streetcar's arrival (the current system requires the streetcar to stop on a radio receiver right before the switch to request the direction)
3. A signal to confirm that the switch has successfully changed and locked in the correct direction (currently operators need to stop and visually check that the switch has properly changed)

Fun fact, the switches in Leslie Yard are already dual-leaf with confirmation lights, so streetcars can proceed through them without stopping, unlike the switches on the actual streetcar routes. There is no need for a switch detection system there since the switches are centrally controlled by a dispatcher.
First off, this 10km/h speed limit over specialwork has nothing to do with the switches. It applies over trailing switches or intersections where there are only crossings, too.

Second off, and once again, the type of switch itself has no bearing on any of the rules currently in place. Single-point switches are just as safe as dual-point switches with the current and past equipment. The issue is with the switch control system, which should have been replaced 20 years ago or more - that's the stop-and-stay rule that has been in place for a long time at all facing switches.

To your point about Leslie, it's not the dual-point switches that allows them to proceed without stopping, it's the fact that they are controlled from the central yard office and thus can't be changed from within the equipment. Thus, there's no way for the current, antiquated N/A system to potentially change the position of a switch without the operator knowing (or paying attention to).

Dan
 
First off, this 10km/h speed limit over specialwork has nothing to do with the switches. It applies over trailing switches or intersections where there are only crossings, too.
It is absolutely to do with the switches. Via trains travel through switches at up to 160 km/h without issue, yet the TTC has observed that streetcars sometimes derail at speeds as low as 15 km/h. Trailing switches are also affected by the lack of a second leaf, since they don't provide a continuous surface for both of the wheels but the 10 km/h is frankly excessively restrictive for trailing switches. Experienced operators often do travel through trailing switches faster than 10 km/h without issue.

The speed restriction on crossings without switches is unnecessary. It's probably just included for simplicity since there are switches at almost every crossing anyway.

Second off, and once again, the type of switch itself has no bearing on any of the rules currently in place. Single-point switches are just as safe as dual-point switches with the current and past equipment.
If single-leaf switches are so safe then why can streetcars derail on them even when travelling straight? How is it that every other light rail system in the world can travel straight through a switch at vastly higher speeds than the TTC?

The issue is with the switch control system, which should have been replaced 20 years ago or more - that's the stop-and-stay rule that has been in place for a long time at all facing switches.
There are two restrictions:
1. Stop & Proceed at leading switches (due to control system)
2. 10 km/h through special trackwork (due to single-leaf switches)

So the switch control system is not "the issue", it is one of the two issues. If the TTC resolves stop-and-proceed but streetcars still need to crawl at 10 km/h, it wouldn't save much time. They need to fix BOTH issues to significantly reduce streetcar delays at switches.
To your point about Leslie, it's not the dual-point switches that allows them to proceed without stopping, it's the fact that they are controlled from the central yard office and thus can't be changed from within the equipment. Thus, there's no way for the current, antiquated N/A system to potentially change the position of a switch without the operator knowing (or paying attention to).
Yes... that's literally what I said.
 

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It is absolutely to do with the switches. Via trains travel through switches at up to 160 km/h without issue, yet the TTC has observed that streetcars sometimes derail at speeds as low as 15 km/h. Trailing switches are also affected by the lack of a second leaf, since they don't provide a continuous surface for both of the wheels.
Stop-and-stay rule - took effect about 2002 or so after a pair of accidents (wb on Fork York @ Fork York Loop, and wb on Queens Quay @ Queens Quay/Spadina Loop) that occurred when cars operated at high speed through switches set in the incorrect position and the system was not able to reset them to the correct position in time. At that time, once the switch was occupied, the operator was allowed to resume normal operating speed.

10km/h over specialwork - took effect in about 2017 when a pair of streetcars collided at Spadina & College heading eb and wb. The original form of this rule prevented 2 cars from occupying any specialwork at all, but they scaled that back.

So please, do tell - which of these two rules, which happened at different times, were caused specially by the switches? Because the answer that I am seeing is "none".

The speed restriction on crossings without switches is unnecessary. It's probably just included for simplicity since there are switches at almost every crossing anyway.
It's not. It's specific that it applies to all specialwork, regardless of configuration. It does not say "intersections".

If single-leaf switches are so safe then why can streetcars derail on them even when travelling straight?
Can we ask that same question about double-point switches then? Or is that taboo because it doesn't fit your narrative?

How is it that every other light rail system in the world can travel straight through a switch at vastly higher speeds than the TTC?
Not all, but most do, yes. And likely because they don't use obsolete control systems that should have been replaced 20+ years ago.

That is literally what I said
It's not, because you're conflating the fact that they are double-point switches with the fact that the stop-and-stay rule doesn't apply there. The reason isn't the switches, it's the control system.

And since you don't seem clear on it - the control system is not the same as switches. The two are independent. A new control system could be installed tomorrow, and the TTC would get rid of the stop-and-stay rule without changing a single meter of track.

Dan
 
Stop-and-stay rule - took effect about 2002 or so after a pair of accidents (wb on Fork York @ Fork York Loop, and wb on Queens Quay @ Queens Quay/Spadina Loop) that occurred when cars operated at high speed through switches set in the incorrect position and the system was not able to reset them to the correct position in time. At that time, once the switch was occupied, the operator was allowed to resume normal operating speed.

10km/h over specialwork - took effect in about 2017 when a pair of streetcars collided at Spadina & College heading eb and wb. The original form of this rule prevented 2 cars from occupying any specialwork at all, but they scaled that back.

So please, do tell - which of these two rules, which happened at different times, were caused specially by the switches? Because the answer that I am seeing is "none".
What makes you think the 10 km/h over special trackwork only dates from 2017? And if the 10 km/h restriction is due to the switch control system why does it also apply to trailing switches and crossings that don't require any control system?
It's not. It's specific that it applies to all specialwork, regardless of configuration. It does not say "intersections".
So you're saying that it's impossible for the TTC to introduce an unnecessarily restrictive streetcar operating policy?
Can we ask that same question about double-point switches then? Or is that taboo because it doesn't fit your narrative?
So you think I'm some kind of dual-leaf switch lobbyist? That makes no sense. When did I say anything was taboo? What I want is streetcars to be able to proceed straight through switches at a reasonable speed, as is the case for pretty much every tram system in the entire world, outside Toronto. If that can be done with single-leaf switches, that's great but it's inconsistent with everything I've heard to date about the current switch geometry.

TTC's own reports indicate that dual-leaf switches would perform better and be cheaper to install (since they don't need to be custom ordered like the obsolete single-leaf design), so I thought that dual leaf switches would perform better.

If you're asking about why the speed limit is 10 km/h through the dual leaf switches in Leslie Yard, that's because the entire yard is covered by a yard speed limit regardless of the switches.
Not all, but most do, yes. And likely because they don't use obsolete control systems that should have been replaced 20+ years ago.
If the TTC can eliminate the 10 km/h restriction while still using the current antiquated design that would be great.
It's not, because you're conflating the fact that they are double-point switches with the fact that the stop-and-stay rule doesn't apply there. The reason isn't the switches, it's the control system.
It is what I said. I clearly stated which restrictions are due to the control system.
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I also mentioned that Leslie has dual-leaf switches because it's a fun fact. You're right that the last paragraph a bit ambiguous if you've already forgotten the previous three sentences. In retrospect I should have split the comment about dual leaf switches into a separate sentence to accommodate people with limited cognitive abilities.

And since you don't seem clear on it - the control system is not the same as switches. The two are independent. A new control system could be installed tomorrow, and the TTC would get rid of the stop-and-stay rule without changing a single meter of track.
Yes thank you captain obvious. I am very familiar with the TTC's current switch detection system, no need to mansplain it.
 
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10km/h over specialwork - took effect in about 2017 when a pair of streetcars collided at Spadina & College heading eb and we. The original form of this rule prevented 2 cars from occupying any specialwork at all, but they scaled that back.
what was the cause of the collision?
 
As far as I'm concerned, the TTC should be doing anything and everything it possibly can to increase the speed of service on all streetcar routes. The amount of stops on both the streetcar and bus networks is nuts. You'd think those in charge of the TTC have never ridden a tram in other countries. When I'm in Europe, I'll go out of my way to take a tram rather than a train. Here I just never take streetcars. I do hope the new LRTs are a lot better, because the legacy streetcar network frankly sucks. I do think the initiative on King is a good first step though, but it needs to go a lot further.
 
As far as I'm concerned, the TTC should be doing anything and everything it possibly can to increase the speed of service on all streetcar routes. The amount of stops on both the streetcar and bus networks is nuts. You'd think those in charge of the TTC have never ridden a tram in other countries. When I'm in Europe, I'll go out of my way to take a tram rather than a train. Here I just never take streetcars. I do hope the new LRTs are a lot better, because the legacy streetcar network frankly sucks. I do think the initiative on King is a good first step though, but it needs to go a lot further.
The TTC has been trying to remove closely-spaced stops for over a decade but their efforts keep getting stopped by local councillors.

We have an entire Urban Toronto thread on this topic. Here's a table I posted there, where I highlighted 28 streetcar stops that the TTC has removed since 2014.
screen-shot-2018-05-13-at-12-12-47-png.143335
 
The original form of this rule prevented 2 cars from occupying any specialwork at all, but they scaled that back.
What have they been telling them in training? On a few occasions recently I've been on cars where one driver yielded to the car, sometimes plural, going in the opposite direction, thus not moving from the intersection for several minutes since of course it takes an age to negotiate any switches. Am I just unlucky to be getting all the paranoid nutcases?
 
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What have they been telling them in training? On a few occasions recently I've been on cars where one driver yielded to the car, sometimes plural, going in the opposite direction, thus not moving from the intersection for several minutes since of course it takes an age to negotiate any switches. Am I just unlucky to be getting all the paranoid nutcases?

I saw this on Reddit today:
where-king-meets-queen-v0-66nqj770wi5f1.jpeg


Going over a switch and right by each other over specialwork! Insanity!!!

 
A volunteer/staff for Olivia Chow just came by our house in the Junction area asking about issues/concerns in the neighbourhood, and mentionned some initiatives the mayor will be pushing. He specifically mentionned enhancements to the 506 Streetcar to reduce bunching, and adding bump-outs at streetcar stops (I assume like on Roncy). I think I've heard about the anti-bunching initiatives, not the bump-outs though. Has there been studies or information on these supposed bump-outs being added to the 506?
 
As far as I'm concerned, the TTC should be doing anything and everything it possibly can to increase the speed of service on all streetcar routes. The amount of stops on both the streetcar and bus networks is nuts. You'd think those in charge of the TTC have never ridden a tram in other countries. When I'm in Europe, I'll go out of my way to take a tram rather than a train. Here I just never take streetcars. I do hope the new LRTs are a lot better, because the legacy streetcar network frankly sucks. I do think the initiative on King is a good first step though, but it needs to go a lot further.
As has been demonstrated repeatedly by Steve Munro, the greatest problem with TTC service is their inability or unwillingness to properly manage routes. Customers need predictability and if a route is chheduled to run every x minutes then a vehicle should arrive every x minutes and if it is advertised as arriving at Stop Y at hh:mm then it should normally arrive then.

The number of stops does, of course, affect speed but one needs to balance customer convenience with speed. The fastest service would be zero stops between the start and the end of a route but this would not be terribly good for the customers who wanted to board or leave vehicle somewhere en route!
 
As has been demonstrated repeatedly by Steve Munro, the greatest problem with TTC service is their inability or unwillingness to properly manage routes. Customers need predictability and if a route is chheduled to run every x minutes then a vehicle should arrive every x minutes and if it is advertised as arriving at Stop Y at hh:mm then it should normally arrive then.

The number of stops does, of course, affect speed but one needs to balance customer convenience with speed. The fastest service would be zero stops between the start and the end of a route but this would not be terribly good for the customers who wanted to board or leave vehicle somewhere en route!

Like I said, the TTC should do anything and everything it can to increase the speed of their network, including better management of their routes.

I never suggested 0 stops.

But the lack of attention to actually improving service is pretty sad. All streetcar lines should be upgraded to LRTs. If not, you may as well just replace them with buses. The cars currently in those streetcar corridors will find other ways to get around.
 

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