[DSCToronto]

Sorry if this has already been covered, but has there ever been any attempt to trial a Melbourne-style hook left turn in Toronto’s history?

SEE: https://transport.vic.gov.au/road-rules-and-safety/hook-turns

Most commonly found in Melbourne’s CBD and inner suburbs, hook turns help keep intersections clear for trams while improving traffic flow.

You need to do hook turns when a 'hook turn' sign is shown at the intersection, as shown in the video below.

Hook turns for cars, trucks and buses​

1. Move to the left lane. While in the left lane, indicate right.
2. Watch for bicycles and electric scooter riders, and all other vehicles.
3. Enter the intersection and keep to the far-left side, but don’t block pedestrian crossings.
4. If there’s a road marking, follow the lines. Otherwise, stop at the point where you would turn right.
5. Wait until the traffic lights on the road you want to enter have changed to green.
6. Check there are no moving vehicles moving in the lane on your right.
7. Turn right into the road and continue to drive.

As Australia drives on left side of the road, I would think that what works there might not work here. At least not for left turns :->

 

[bearcat]

SEE: https://transport.vic.gov.au/road-rules-and-safety/hook-turns

Most commonly found in Melbourne’s CBD and inner suburbs, hook turns help keep intersections clear for trams while improving traffic flow.

You need to do hook turns when a 'hook turn' sign is shown at the intersection, as shown in the video below.

Hook turns for cars, trucks and buses​

1. Move to the left lane. While in the left lane, indicate right.
2. Watch for bicycles and electric scooter riders, and all other vehicles.
3. Enter the intersection and keep to the far-left side, but don’t block pedestrian crossings.
4. If there’s a road marking, follow the lines. Otherwise, stop at the point where you would turn right.
5. Wait until the traffic lights on the road you want to enter have changed to green.
6. Check there are no moving vehicles moving in the lane on your right.
7. Turn right into the road and continue to drive.

As Australia drives on left side of the road, I would think that what works there might not work here. At least not for left turns :->

In Australia the hook turn is used for right turns, so if reflected in the mirror so to say, the equivalent would be for left turns in Canada. I thinks that's what the poster meant.

It works essentially the same as bike boxes we have for two stage left turns.

The idea is that 1) cars didn't wait to turn left in front of a streetcar (if it's a shared lane). 2) no cars turn across the streetcar rails during the green for the streetcar (reducing risk of collision).

Here is a video:

 

[ownthesky]

In Australia the hook turn is used for right turns, so if reflected in the mirror so to say, the equivalent would be for left turns in Canada. I thinks that's what the poster meant.

It works essentially the same as bike boxes we have for two stage left turns.

The idea is that 1) cars didn't wait to turn left in front of a streetcar (if it's a shared lane). 2) no cars turn across the streetcar rails during the green for the streetcar (reducing risk of collision).

Here is a video:

Thank you, as pointed out, hook turns are for RIGHT turns in Australia. I'm wondering if there was ever any discussion in planning circles for hooked LEFT turns to give streetcars (and through traffic in general) priority in intersections that cannot have their left turning restricted entirely.

We already use hook turns in our bike networks all over the province, they're bike boxes that direct cyclists to cross and wait on the far side bike box, also called a "Copenhagen Left" or "indirect left". I suspect that it would take years to teach Toronto drivers to use them and would probably require intensive public outreach like we see whenever diverging diamonds interchanges are built. The one big problem with Melbourne-style hook turns is that it requires drives to check their blind spot/mirror that the turn is clear, as otherwise they can get creamed by the rare streetcar running a red light - from what I understand, the solution in major intersections is that they use electronic signalling to hold those turning drivers to decrease the risk of a light runner.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

In the early plans for the Eglinton and Finch West LRT, there was discussions on the "Michigan U-Turn". REJECTED by the automobile lobby.

 

[ownthesky]

In the early plans for the Eglinton and Finch West LRT, there was discussions on the "Michigan U-Turn". REJECTED by the automobile lobby.
View attachment 664922

That's really frustrating, it's not like the Michigan Left takes up dramatically more space than the existing protected left turns. It seems like a fair compromise for drivers to me - you keep more of your left turns and in exchange there's a small delay with the additional signals and queuing.

 

[ShonTron]

That's really frustrating, it's not like the Michigan Left takes up dramatically more space than the existing protected left turns. It seems like a fair compromise for drivers to me - you keep more of your left turns and in exchange there's a small delay with the additional signals and queuing.

The Michigan Left as designed does require a lot of space, and are generally found on wide medians as you have on Michigan state highways like Telegraph Road, 8 Mile Road, as well as Michigan Avenue and Woodward Avenue outside the City of Detroit.

For regular traffic you can have narrower U-turn lanes like you have on St. Clair, but they do not easily accommodate tractor trailers as would be necessary at certain intersections on Eglinton or Finch.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

This has been reported before in UT and in August of 2024 in BLOG.TO ( https://www.blogto.com/city/2024/08/toronto-ttc-streetcars-slowest-world/ )...
View attachment 657135
For reference, you can link to the PDF report here ( https://t.co/PUpHoVyctk )

 

[goodcitywhenfinished]

Really good, in-depth video.

The world needs to know how embarrassingly bad our streetcar network is.

I hope Mandeep Lali has operational improvements to streetcars in his top priorities and I hope he plans on trying his best to curry favour with the nay-sayers in Transportation Services.

At this point we need a dedicated TTC budget to just bribe Transportation Services with large sums of cash for OK-ing signal priority, removing left turns, and removing on street parking.

 

[T3G]

Great video as always, but... is that true, that the trolley poles precluded the use of AC on the new streetcars?? I've never seen anyone complain anywhere about the streetcars not using AC at all for the first 3 years of service, and why would the new cars not have been able to use AC, but the CLRV that got an AC unit didn't have any trouble with it?

 

[APTA-2048]

Great video as always, but... is that true, that the trolley poles precluded the use of AC on the new streetcars?? I've never seen anyone complain anywhere about the streetcars not using AC at all for the first 3 years of service, and why would the new cars not have been able to use AC, but the CLRV that got an AC unit didn't have any trouble with it?

Well that’s definitely not true. Is AC actually referring to alternating current?

 

[nfitz]

Great video as always, but... is that true, that the trolley poles precluded the use of AC on the new streetcars?? I've never seen anyone complain anywhere about the streetcars not using AC at all for the first 3 years of service, and why would the new cars not have been able to use AC, but the CLRV that got an AC unit didn't have any trouble with it?

have you not noticed that the air conditioning has been running on the "new cars" for about a decade?

That CLRV was great! Always very cold.

 

[T3G]

Well that’s definitely not true. Is AC actually referring to alternating current?

I should have linked the timestamp when I made my original post, but he's definitely referring to air conditioning. At 42:28:

But the use of trolley poles meant that the air conditioning couldn't be used on the new streetcars because it required too much power.

have you not noticed that the air conditioning has been running on the "new cars" for about a decade?

That CLRV was great! Always very cold.

I've been watching this guy for about 3 years, and he never struck me as being the type of person to pull wildly unfounded statements out of his posterior, that's why I found it rather head scratching. I never rode a Flexity without A/C, but I wondered whether maybe that was an early problem they had that they worked out by the time the cars entered service?

I only rode the CLRV once and that was in the dead of winter.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Great video as always, but... is that true, that the trolley poles precluded the use of AC on the new streetcars?? I've never seen anyone complain anywhere about the streetcars not using AC at all for the first 3 years of service, and why would the new cars not have been able to use AC, but the CLRV that got an AC unit didn't have any trouble with it?

They haven't been using trolly poles for awhile now except for in Russell yard but they are rebuilding it for pantograph only now. There are no in-service routes that they are using poles on anymore, it's also been reported that the most recent one's delivered haven't even come with them.

 

[smallspy]

I've been watching this guy for about 3 years, and he never struck me as being the type of person to pull wildly unfounded statements out of his posterior, that's why I found it rather head scratching. I never rode a Flexity without A/C, but I wondered whether maybe that was an early problem they had that they worked out by the time the cars entered service?

The A/C worked from day 1 on the cars, and works regardless of the method of current collection used.

I suspect that he got that information third-hand - there were people high-up at the TTC who made rather inaccurate claims about the requirement for pantograph operation with the new cars. They would share that information with others such as various bloggers and the claims would thus get repeated without contest.

Dan

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

The Flexity streetcars generally consume less power per passenger than the older CLRV (Canadian Light Rail Vehicle) streetcars. Key words "per passenger". However, Flexity cars can hold up to 181 passengers, with 70 seated, while CLRVs could only hold a maximum of 74 passengers, with 46 seated, and with A/C running, the Flexity streetcars could use more power overall.