[CMQSD402F9011]

Sure, they were shown one. Manufacturers and dealers frequently bring by equipment to show off and try and impress.

But no, there were never any definite plans to buy artics. The UCRS is incorrect in that measure. What was planned was that the order that eventually became the first order of Orion VIIs was worded loosely to allow an option for articulated buses - should there be any that were capable of meeting the TTC's spec's. And at the end of the day, there were not.

As for artics in general, and why the TTC has been so gun-shy about them over the years......their experiences with them have not been great. The found that the GM artics cost 3 times more in maintenance per year than a then-standard bus. The Orion IIIs were no better in that regard. They used a lot more fuel, and had difficulty keeping up with the schedules that were designed for 40 foot buses. And things haven't really changed in that regard with the Nova and New Flyer artics that they have today, which is why it doesn't appear that they are looking to get replacements for them.

Dan

If so, wouldn’t the NFI D60HFs and D60LFs meet the TTC’s specs(?) for the NYC’s MTA, the D60HFs performed better on their roads. They did avoided the Ikarus Artics in NYC in which they first got Artics in 1996 for the D60HFs.

 

[smallspy]

If so, wouldn’t the NFI D60HFs and D60LFs meet the TTC’s specs(?) for the NYC’s MTA, the D60HFs performed better on their roads. They did avoided the Ikarus Artics in NYC in which they first got Artics in 1996 for the D60HFs.

In a word - no.

The TTC required a whole bunch of things on their buses at the time, but the major deal breakers were a stainless steel frame and a "lifetime" warranty on the frame. Orion was the only one to offer both of those.

That's why the TTC only bought from Orion until their demise. And had to hold their nose when giving the tenders to Nova since.

Dan

 

[Bordercollie]

In a word - no.

The TTC required a whole bunch of things on their buses at the time, but the major deal breakers were a stainless steel frame and a "lifetime" warranty on the frame. Orion was the only one to offer both of those.

That's why the TTC only bought from Orion until their demise. And had to hold their nose when giving the tenders to Nova since.

Dan

At least the Nova Frames held up.

 

[smallspy]

At least the Nova Frames held up.

Not as well as you think....

Dan

 

[T3G]

At least the Nova Frames held up.

Not exactly a useful comparison, since the Novas have begun to retire after 12 years and thus weren't given a chance to last as long as the Orion VIIs, of which a very big chunk made it to 18.

 

[CMQSD402F9011]

In a word - no.

The TTC required a whole bunch of things on their buses at the time, but the major deal breakers were a stainless steel frame and a "lifetime" warranty on the frame. Orion was the only one to offer both of those.

That's why the TTC only bought from Orion until their demise. And had to hold their nose when giving the tenders to Nova since.

Dan

Wouldn’t NYC’s MTA require stainless steel on their buses? I know their climate might be different there. And as for Orion, they never offered any Artic models when they existed. Although I would assume had they did. TTC would’ve been the only customer. Although I do believe it was the III failures that made Orion hesitant to offer any Artics.

I do recall that MiWay and YRT D40LFs outlived the first TTC Orion VIIs in the last couple of years. With 7400-7881 being built with DDEC S50 EGRs while theirs had Cummins engines. In fact YRT’s D40LFs from 2005-06 outlived the TTC VIIs from 2006-07 to this day. Not sure if both MiWay and YRT D40LFs were built with carbon steel?

 

[Bordercollie]

Not exactly a useful comparison, since the Novas have begun to retire after 12 years and thus weren't given a chance to last as long as the Orion VIIs, of which a very big chunk made it to 18.

I don't think they did a heavy rebuild on the Nova's like they did with the Orion VII's? Did they bring it down to the frame?

 

[RapidTransit]

When it comes to high floor buses , for the same 40ft length, they held more people compared to the low floor buses. And I'm pretty sure the Ontario government made some legislation for transit systems to order only low floor buses.

TTC has unique spec as do mNy transit systems, and as mentioned before, NYC has way harder roads and demand. So if a bus can survive NYC, then surely they can survive Toronto.

One thing is for sure, TTC has never really like artics.
Personally the nova buses are the worst rides I've experienced since TTC has went low floor. With a shorter wheel base, it helps with tight turns, but a rough ride.

But with a recent stop order on the NFI buses, that was also recently lifted in Dec, it could potentially hurt NFI chances in Toronto. Hopefully NFI can redeem themselves.

I recall hearing a rumor years ago that NFI wanted to sue David Gunn or TTC over remarks about their buses. But with NFI being the last bus purchase under David Gunn, I highly doubt that.

One thing I found interesting was the RTS buses TTC got in the 1998 was built in New Mexico, despite Orion being made in Ontario and Nova actually having a plant in Quebec. Not sure how TTC got around that.

 

[Richard White]

One thing is for sure, TTC has never really like artics.
Personally the nova buses are the worst rides I've experienced since TTC has went low floor. With a shorter wheel base, it helps with tight turns, but a rough ride

Rough is an understatement.

One ride over the wheelbase and a chiropractor may be needed.

 

[Bordercollie]

When it comes to high floor buses , for the same 40ft length, they held more people compared to the low floor buses. And I'm pretty sure the Ontario government made some legislation for transit systems to order only low floor buses.

TTC has unique spec as do mNy transit systems, and as mentioned before, NYC has way harder roads and demand. So if a bus can survive NYC, then surely they can survive Toronto.

One thing is for sure, TTC has never really like artics.
Personally the nova buses are the worst rides I've experienced since TTC has went low floor. With a shorter wheel base, it helps with tight turns, but a rough ride.

But with a recent stop order on the NFI buses, that was also recently lifted in Dec, it could potentially hurt NFI chances in Toronto. Hopefully NFI can redeem themselves.

I recall hearing a rumor years ago that NFI wanted to sue David Gunn or TTC over remarks about their buses. But with NFI being the last bus purchase under David Gunn, I highly doubt that.

One thing I found interesting was the RTS buses TTC got in the 1998 was built in New Mexico, despite Orion being made in Ontario and Nova actually having a plant in Quebec. Not sure how TTC got around that.

Why was there a stop order on new flyer?

The new flyer attics are no better as they age. Been to Hamilton lately? They are basically falling apart.

Probably the RTS was in production there and to ramp it up in Quebec would take time. They were horrible to ride on. Almost as bad as an Orion VI.

Weren't the Orion II's a nightmare to work on as well due to the cramped engine compartment.

 

[RapidTransit]

Why was there a stop order on new flyer?

The new flyer attics are no better as they age. Been to Hamilton lately? They are basically falling apart.

Probably the RTS was in production there and to ramp it up in Quebec would take time. They were horrible to ride on. Almost as bad as an Orion VI.

Weren't the Orion II's a nightmare to work on as well due to the cramped engine compartment.

The NFI EV weren't meeting TTCs contractual reliability agreement. And PDI inspections. I also believe it's the reason why TTC is getting 50 more Nova EV in 2027 instead of NFI. It's yet to be known who will win the hybrid order. But I'll bet it's Nova as well.

Orion II is a small bus to begin with, so it's no different than working on a smaller vehicle. Technically all engine compartments are cramped.

In 1998 TTC could have ordered Nova Classics instead of RTS, I believe production might have ended a year prior , but if TTC ordered Classics I'm sure Nova would have honored the request.

But If I recall , Gunn wanted RTS because of his experience in NYC. Despite them being made in the US.

It's been so many years. But I was under the assumption that the province encouraged Orion because they had owned them. But if I recall , Orion was sold when Mike Harris came in. So maybe there wasn't a strict policy with the new administration. Or when TTC ordered the RTS , they had enough funds without needing money from the province?

 

[T3G]

I don't think they did a heavy rebuild on the Nova's like they did with the Orion VII's? Did they bring it down to the frame?

I am not privy to the exact details on what they did to the Novas, but the 12 year lifespan has been a plan for a while, so it would not surprise me if they only did a light refurbishment on them. Why dump all that money on them if they're going to go away in a few years' time?

The work they did on the Orion VIIs was in itself pretty light - the average bus was in and out of the workshops in about 8 days, compared to the GM rebuilds in the 2000s that took about 6 weeks per bus.

 

[RapidTransit]

Rough is an understatement.

One ride over the wheelbase and a chiropractor may be needed.

I've asked some operators how they feel about it, and a lot of them don't like it. A few surprisingly like the Novas. But the majority dislike them. I couldn't be on one for a trip much less an 8-10 hour shift.

 

[RapidTransit]

I am not privy to the exact details on what they did to the Novas, but the 12 year lifespan has been a plan for a while, so it would not surprise me if they only did a light refurbishment on them. Why dump all that money on them if they're going to go away in a few years' time?

The work they did on the Orion VIIs was in itself pretty light - the average bus was in and out of the workshops in about 8 days, compared to the GM rebuilds in the 2000s that took about 6 weeks per bus.

It amazes me how TTC was able to rebuild that many buses in house. It's something you don't hear if TTC doing anymore. I assume now a lot of components are sent out and brought back refurbished, instead of TTC doing it in house

 

[CMQSD402F9011]

When it comes to high floor buses , for the same 40ft length, they held more people compared to the low floor buses. And I'm pretty sure the Ontario government made some legislation for transit systems to order only low floor buses.

TTC has unique spec as do mNy transit systems, and as mentioned before, NYC has way harder roads and demand. So if a bus can survive NYC, then surely they can survive Toronto.

One thing is for sure, TTC has never really like artics.
Personally the nova buses are the worst rides I've experienced since TTC has went low floor. With a shorter wheel base, it helps with tight turns, but a rough ride.

But with a recent stop order on the NFI buses, that was also recently lifted in Dec, it could potentially hurt NFI chances in Toronto. Hopefully NFI can redeem themselves.

I recall hearing a rumor years ago that NFI wanted to sue David Gunn or TTC over remarks about their buses. But with NFI being the last bus purchase under David Gunn, I highly doubt that.

One thing I found interesting was the RTS buses TTC got in the 1998 was built in New Mexico, despite Orion being made in Ontario and Nova actually having a plant in Quebec. Not sure how TTC got around that.

Didn’t NYC MTA had problems with Artics before? It wasn’t until 1996 that they got their first D60HFs basically high floor Artics with wheelchair lifts. Although I wonder what made the MTA to buy D60HFs in the first place? Considered they never had the Ikarus buses or the MAN buses at the time.