[Northern Light]

Must we have nothing but the two extremes above?

'This will put us on a global stage' or Toronto is a complete embarrassment?

I rather find both to be silly, and I'll stop there rather than be as provocative as I might be inclined.

A handful of football/soccer games will not bring unprecedented tourism, wealth or global recognition more than the Toronto Blue Jays winning, the Raptors wining or Murdoch Mysteries does (its quite the hit globally).

In the alternative, Toronto has countless ways to improve, but some of you have clearly never been on the subway in Paris, (where the homeless are quite common), and some of the stations reek of urine.......and yet Paris isn't a global laughing stock.

Turns out some of you should probably travel more, and manage to speak with a tad more nuance.

In the end, I'm not persuaded by the value for money here, but I don't think (I hope) there is no reason it will be a disaster.

It will generate some positive spin, some tourism, but will probably do no better than breaking even in the near term for us as a region.

Fine, moving on.......

 

[urbanclient]

I'm not persuaded by the value for money here

but will probably do not better than breaking even in the near term for us as a region.

^This.

Paris, (where the homeless are quite common), and some of the station reek of urine.

The thing is, I've been on the RER B multiple times to and from CDG airport, and on the Metro to all the tourist trap-y places over multiple visits. I never ran into homeless people or human waste. The main negative was getting crammed in a train with no air conditioning in the summer. I hear stories of Paris transit being filthy, but I guess I got lucky?

 

[Northern Light]

The thing is, I've been on the RER B multiple times to and from CDG airport, and on the Metro to all the tourist trap-y places over multiple visits. I never ran into homeless people or human waste. The main negative was getting crammed in a train with no air conditioning in the summer. I hear stories of Paris transit being filthy, but I guess I got lucky?

Paris has 16 Metro lines and and 5 RER lines with a total of 578 unique stations.

Its certainly possible to see several dozen and not see any or many of the worst.

I know they had an ongoing program of renovating entire lines the last time I visited so its possible many of the worst stations have a had a facelift.

That said, you can see a few images online of some looking a tad rough.

Likewise, Google tells me that that there are around 3-4,000 people living 'in the rough' in Paris these days (Toronto is roughly 3.5x this number in region about 1/2 the size)..... of which many sleep in the Metro.

I'm not going to post images of the homeless on the Metro, though these do turn up in a cursory search.

My overall sense is that its a less common issue in Paris, relative to system and regional population, but certainly its far from absent.

 

[crs1026]

In the end, I'm not persuaded by the value for money here, but I don't think (I hope) there is no reason it will be a disaster.

It will generate some positive spin, some tourism, but will probably do no better than breaking even in the near term for us as a region.

To my mind, the size of the crowds tells the story... hopefully the attendees are not all international travellers, but local people who are passionate about the sport and the meaning of the championship. I do know Toronto residents who have managed to find a way to attend, and they are pumped about watching the matches in person.. In that respect, any event that draws such a big crowd is good for city life.

What I don't like is the excuse for authorities to apply extreme measures that may overreach and create precedent for inserting more of same into more normal times.

To my mind, FIFA goes beyond the civic disruption of say TIFF or Formula One - which despite their inconvenience are reasonable intrusions into daily life in the interest of a vibrant city with special moments - and moves closer to the G7 summit of 15 years ago, where we incent the more disruptive members of our society to come to our city and then we invite the authorities to gear up in riot gear and tactical vehicles to "keep the rest of us safe". Our police have enough of this kind of stuff, and get enough jollies from deploying same, without giving them the windfall of stocking up beyond routine necessity. Ditto people who like to erect fences and barriers, disrupt transit, and exclude people from access to venues.

With so much ethnic diversity and their venues in our city, there's a good chance of a pretty fun street party somewhere in the city when the championship is concluded. I'm content with that level of excitement. I don't mind caravans of flag waving, horn tooting cars roaring around in celebration and waking us all up. But fencing off precincts of the city and caravans of armoured vehicles in my city I oppose, no matter how much revenue we are taking in.

- Paul

 

[Frankietls]

Okay this is a bit rediculous jeez

It might look extreme but only applied to match days (6 over 4 weeks). Outside of matchdays I believe exhibition ground is still publicly accessible and streetcars still can go to exhibition loop.
From Fleet st stop to the stadium is only 800m, which is ideal for crowd management and sponsors pop-up.

 

[Jonny5]

It might look extreme but only applied to match days (6 over 4 weeks). Outside of matchdays I believe exhibition ground is still publicly accessible and streetcars still can go to exhibition loop.
From Fleet st stop to the stadium is only 800m, which is ideal for crowd management and sponsors pop-up.

I think it's unlikely they will tear down all the barricades and then set it all back up again between tournament days, but I can't find anything online about it.

The one thing I do find interesting is the dedicated ride share lot. These are now quite common in much of the US, I've seen them in both Chicago and multiple places in California near stadiums/arenas/airports, and it is very user friendly as you show up, request a ride, and there's someone right there in the lot to pick you up and it tells you exactly spot to stand at, something like "Spot #12," while the drivers comes out from the parking area to pick you up.

 

[McGillicuddy]

When you see how much money this will bring in it won't be a joke.

First round or not this gets us a ton of tourists and put on the global stage. Like Sarajevo with the 1984 Olympics it is all about the name recognition.

Gotta say, the 1984 Olympics are not the top-of-mind thing for me when I contemplate Sarajevo.

 

[nfitz]

Likewise, Google tells me that that there are around 3-4,000 people living 'in the rough' in Paris these days (Toronto is roughly 3.5x this number in region about 1/2 the size)..... of which many sleep in the Metro.

I thought the 15,000ish number for Toronto is for homeless people, not the sleeping rough. There's 10,000 beds in the Toronto shelter system. The total who are sleeping rough in Toronto must be similar.

Gotta say, the 1984 Olympics are not the top-of-mind thing for me when I contemplate Sarajevo.

It certainly was for me, before the war. And I don't think we'll actually get invaded by the USA, despite their threats.

But I think Toronto has pretty good name recognition. And will one be getting much for a competition where Toronto is one of 16 venues; including such places like Kansas City and Monterrey?

 

[urbanclient]

I thought the 15,000ish number for Toronto is for homeless people, not the sleeping rough.

The numbers Northern Light gave and implied seem to be within reason. Apples to apples enough. *edit* More to the point, I think authorities cleaned up and improved transit leading up to the Olympics, when I was there last. A local seemed to concur. So homeless being less visible in inner Paris makes sense.

The homeless rate in Canada is much higher than many developed countries, including the United States.

Our housing crisis is pretty severe. It's inevitable that some people will be pushed into homelessness when rent is so high relative to income.

 

[Northern Light]

I thought the 15,000ish number for Toronto is for homeless people, not the sleeping rough. There's 10,000 beds in the Toronto shelter system.

Correct, 10,700 shelter beds, fully occupied most nights, estimates for those who are homeless and un-sheltered range from 3-5,000 on most nights

The total who are sleeping rough in Toronto must be similar.

Probably, but difficult to assess the overall problem comparably, keeping in mind many homeless shelter in transit during the day, regardless of where they stay at night.

I tried digging up Shelter numbers in Paris, and what I get is this.......

- National numbers-

France 185,000 in shelters, no regional breakdown.

Of those 100,000 are asylum seekers in 'refugee' housing.

****

There are ~271,000 Rent-Geared-to-Income housing units in Paris, which is ~23% of all housing. This would be for the City of Paris (not Ile de France) As the City has about 2,000,000 units of housing

There are 60,000 total units under TCHC or similar, but some of these are market units, its estimated that 41,000 households are currently in RGI housing of some type, in Toronto. Toronto has about 1.16 million units of housing total in the City.

So even the gross number is maybe 6%

Apple to Apples can be quite a challenge.

****

Likewise, compare Toronto's 'dirtiest' station to a median Paris station unfavourably, but you could do the reverse as well. Trying to quantify the median is a bit harder.

 

[nfitz]

Probably, but difficult to assess the overall problem comparably, keeping in mind many homeless shelter in transit during the day, regardless of where they stay at night.

Excellent point!

 

[CMQSD402F9011]

With TTC retiring some Nova LFSA Artics. Wouldn’t this be a bad idea since there are still bus routes that deal with overcrowding aka full buses. I feel like this is going back to 2000-01 when the Orion IIIs were retired without artic replacements. In NYC they found success with Artics aka the D60HFs.

 

[Richard White]

With TTC retiring some Nova LFSA Artics. Wouldn’t this be a bad idea since there are still bus routes that deal with overcrowding aka full buses. I feel like this is going back to 2000-01 when the Orion IIIs were retired without artic replacements. In NYC they found success with Artics aka the D60HFs.

Not all routes can handle them.

For example, anything ending at Lawrence or Davisville Station would be a tight squeeze

 

[Bordercollie]

Security incident at Finch station today. Police and SWAT were in scene.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

Security incident at Finch station today. Police and SWAT were in scene.

Fare evader? A gang of seniors.