[lastcommodore]

Sure, you solve the problem on the TTC. But let’s be honest, you are just moving the problem around. It would no longer be a problem for you, but it gets passed on to someone else.

I get people don’t want to see people suffering from homelessness and mental health crises. But I just want to be clear, constantly kicking people off the TTC is not a real solution. Sure it makes people feel better. But it really just serves to keep people blind to a serious problem we have.

A couple things can be true.
1. Constantly kicking out the mentally ill & homeless is not a long term solution
2. These people are the source of the majority to overwhelming majority of passenger incidents on the TTC
3. Discouraging the use of the TTC as a "moving homeless shelter" will improve customer well-being and reduce incidents

Everyone here will agree that a permanent, long term solution is needed... I for one am in favour of the portuguese solution where these problem people would effectively be forced into rehab, for their own good. But until then, and until that solution brings its long term effects, short term solutions should be pursued.

 

[SubHuman]

.. I get people don’t want to see people suffering from homelessness and mental health crises ...
Sure it makes people feel better.

Do you get that it's not just about aesthetics? Those of us using the TTC are doing so to travel from one place to another, hopefully without as many of the continual "trespasser at track level" and "security incident" delays causing the subway lines to stop running.
It's a public transit system, not intended to be a big de facto psychiatric hospital (but one without doctors, nurses, attendants, etc., and with the added feature of the subway tracks that seem to be a magnetic attraction for so many of them).

 

[APTA-2048]

Everyone here will agree that a permanent, long term solution is needed...

I’m not sure about that. I get the feeling from a lot of posts here and in regular conversation, they just don’t want to have to personally deal with or witness it. People don’t care after that.

Do you get that it's not just about aesthetics? Those of us using the TTC are doing so to travel from one place to another, hopefully without as many of the continual "trespasser at track level" and "security incident" delays causing the subway lines to stop running.
It's a public transit system, not intended to be a big de facto psychiatric hospital (but one without doctors, nurses, attendants, etc., and with the added feature of the subway tracks that seem to be a magnetic attraction for so many of them).

Forgive me because I’ve seen too much pearl clutching over people simply sleeping on the TTC. Obviously there are problems with delays and safety.

Edit: that sounds like I’m dismissing your concerns, I want to clarify that I’m not. I was mostly referring to the perception of riders and how that can change by kicking people off the system, but ultimately not being a proper solution.

 

[generalcanada]

a reminder we have a separate thread for ttc homelessness and safety

 

[nfitz]

If you are referring to TFL, London is holding the 1972 Stock together by a thread. They are 50 years old and well beyond their design life to the point where they are no longer reliable.

Among others. Montreal's MR-63 cars started delivery in 1965 and were retired in 2018. 53 years. Montreal's MR-73s started delivery in around 1974, and are still in service 52-years later. They are planned to be replaced in 2036 - at the age of 60 years.

NYC are still retiring their R44s, with deliveries starting in 1971, and probably all gone by the end of 2026 - 55 years service. The R42s did 50 years. The R32s from 1964 were retired in 2022 - 58 years.

The 1972 London tube stock are likely to be replaced in the late 2030s or early 2040s. Well over 60-years old, might hit 70! However the 1973 stock should be gone in 2030 - only 57 years old. The final 1938 stock was withdrawn in 2021 - 80+ years. Though the final 30 or so years was by British Rail (and successors) on the Isle of Wight.

The subway in Buenos Aires is still using some some subway cars from 1954 - over 70 years old. Paris's MP 59 (very similar to Montreal's MR-63) trains were in service for over 60 years from 1963 to 2024 while their MF 67s entered service in 1968 and won't be fully retired for 2034 - over 65 years of service.

The 1972 stock is hardly an outlier. Yeah, it requires more work as it gets older. But it's 100% an option; but harder to fund maintenance than capital costs in Ontario.

 

[nfitz]

That was never the case here, and no one was advocating for it when previous generations of trains were retired. This time should be no different.

No one? Didn't we discuss just that, here, about 20 years ago?

I don't know if it's literal ATC that was added to the H4s (H1s were gone in 2017).

I believe there's still four H1s in TTC non-revenue service. And several H4s.

If the 28 work cars that were given ATC (I assume 30 with the T1s) doesn't include any H1s or H4s, I'd be shocked.

To be pedantic: When Line 1 had a mixed fleet during the early phases of the installation in the early 2010s, the non-Toronto Rockets (H series, T-1s) were never converted to be ATC-capable, certainly not the H1s that were retired in 1999? I don't know if "H1s" was a typo. Or do you mean AC air conditioning for the H1s?

No, the H1s and H4s that are TTC are still operating now. ATC conversion wasn't complete until the early 2020s. Did they add AC? I'm surprised.

Here's an H4 at Downsview Park station last year:

 

[T3G]

Did they add AC? I'm surprised.

No subway cars in Toronto were ever retrofitted with A/C that didn't have it when they were built.

 

[turbanplanner]

No one? Didn't we discuss just that, here, about 20 years ago?


I believe there's still four H1s in TTC non-revenue service. And several H4s.

If the 28 work cars that were given ATC (I assume 30 with the T1s) doesn't include any H1s or H4s, I'd be shocked.


No, the H1s and H4s that are TTC are still operating now. ATC conversion wasn't complete until the early 2020s. Did they add AC? I'm surprised.

Here's an H4 at Downsview Park station last year:

View attachment 719631

Any tips on if I'd want to snap a photo like this?

I was at Union Station's TTC concourse a few months ago and I woman started screeching and flaying about. Four TTC security guards were there, walked over to her and said cut it out. I'd hurried past. Upon which she walked away from them, down onto the platform and inevitably onto my train, where she began screaming at all the passengers. I thought to myself, if this transit system will not keep disruptive nutters off their property, then I won't use it unless I must. It's just so different elsewhere in the world, for example in Singapore I recall how clean the subways were and how polite and quiet everyone was. Of course a transit system can only but pull from the society in which it operates, and Toronto seems to have surrendered so much of the public realm to the addicted and mentally ill population and to the homeless industrial complex that purposely concentrates the issue into the downtown core.

I had this EXACT sort of interaction but on the GO a while back! Crazy man screaming about how jesus will murder us. He magically was sane once some special constables came to ask where he was going. and about 30 seconds later he's screaming again.

 

[81-717]

No one? Didn't we discuss just that, here, about 20 years ago?

Feel free to link any posts from that era that would say so, because it's probably buried among a sea of posts all saying "30 year lifespan" and "good riddance".

I believe there's still four H1s in TTC non-revenue service. And several H4s.

If there are still H1s around I'd be pleasantly surprised, but I'm pretty sure there are none since the end of 2017. I'm equally surprised that some H4s remained in storage in their original condition until as late as 2019 or later, before being converted to work cars. If only those had been preserved with their original interior intact (not that a converted H4 shouldn't be preserved anyway).

Among others. Montreal's MR-63 cars started delivery in 1965 and were retired in 2018. 53 years. Montreal's MR-73s started delivery in around 1974, and are still in service 52-years later. They are planned to be replaced in 2036 - at the age of 60 years.

NYC are still retiring their R44s, with deliveries starting in 1971, and probably all gone by the end of 2026 - 55 years service. The R42s did 50 years. The R32s from 1964 were retired in 2022 - 58 years.

The 1972 London tube stock are likely to be replaced in the late 2030s or early 2040s. Well over 60-years old, might hit 70! However the 1973 stock should be gone in 2030 - only 57 years old. The final 1938 stock was withdrawn in 2021 - 80+ years. Though the final 30 or so years was by British Rail (and successors) on the Isle of Wight.

The subway in Buenos Aires is still using some some subway cars from 1954 - over 70 years old. Paris's MP 59 (very similar to Montreal's MR-63) trains were in service for over 60 years from 1963 to 2024 while their MF 67s entered service in 1968 and won't be fully retired for 2034 - over 65 years of service.

The 1972 stock is hardly an outlier. Yeah, it requires more work as it gets older. But it's 100% an option; but harder to fund maintenance than capital costs in Ontario.

Now let's look at the TTC specifically:
Gs: 36 years
M1s: 36 years
H1s: 34 years
H2s: 30 years
H4s: 37 years
H5s: 36 years
H6s: 28 years
The T1s, TRs & future cars should be no different

 

[turbanplanner]

Feel free to link any posts from that era that would say so, because it's probably buried among a sea of posts all saying "30 year lifespan" and "good riddance".

If there are still H1s around I'd be pleasantly surprised, but I'm pretty sure there are none since the end of 2017. I'm equally surprised that some H4s remained in storage in their original condition until as late as 2019 or later, before being converted to work cars. If only those had been preserved with their original interior intact (not that a converted H4 shouldn't be preserved anyway).

Now let's look at the TTC specifically:
Gs: 36 years
M1s: 36 years
H1s: 34 years
H2s: 30 years
H4s: 37 years
H5s: 36 years
H6s: 28 years.

The T1s, TRs & future cars should be no different

It's a total shame one of the 5's or 6's were preserved. Not a single one :/

 

[81-717]

It's a total shame one of the 5's or 6's were preserved. Not a single one :/

Yes, it's absolutely infuriating. At least 5707 still survives & is sorta preserved by a private company (you could argue that it's not a guarantee they won't eventually get rid of it, but technically preservation societies also get rid of things sometimes, so no guarantee there either).

 

[T3G]

Any tips on if I'd want to snap a photo like this?

You're pretty much out of luck if you wanted a photo of one in a station, you'd just have to be in the right place at the right time. But if any photo will do, Belt Line Bridge over Davisville yard. I have never stopped by there and not seen at least one H4 work car parked in the yard.

 

[81-717]

I have never stopped by there and not seen at least one H4 work car parked in the yard.

When I was there on Feb 12 & 16 to film 566X & 613X there were nothing but TRs. But when I passed by a few days later the H4s were back.

 

[nfitz]

If there are still H1s around I'd be pleasantly surprised, but I'm pretty sure there are none since the end of 2017. I'm equally surprised that some H4s remained in storage in their original condition until as late as 2019 or later, before being converted to work cars. If only those had been preserved with their original interior intact (not that a converted H4 shouldn't be preserved anyway).

H1 cars 5336, 5458, and 5459 are still used for asbestos abatement according to https://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php/Toronto_Transit_Commission_Rail_Workcars. I'd assume the latter two are relatively intact if they are crew cars.

My point though is that if some of the H4s (and H1s?) and T1s have been successfully converted to ATC, in the early 2020s - then why is it a no-go to convert the remaining T1 fleet?

 

[nfitz]

You're pretty much out of luck if you wanted a photo of one in a station, you'd just have to be in the right place at the right time. But if any photo will do, Belt Line Bridge over Davisville yard. I have never stopped by there and not seen at least one H4 work car parked in the yard.

The only time I've consistently seen them in stations, is on Danforth between Greenwood and Yonge just before the last train of the day ran. But that was a while ago, I seldom ride at that time since Covid.

You can see them in Greenwood at times from the GO Train. I'm not sure if there's a good vantage point. Wilson too I think ...