[81-717]

If you look elsewhere, where they can get 60-years out of rolling stock

That was never the case here, and no one was advocating for it when previous generations of trains were retired. This time should be no different.

If you installed ATP on each and every of the remaining 337 TR cars (rather than in pairs, triplets, or trainsets)

TR cars, or T1 cars?

If delaying the replacement of the T1 trains by only a year, it's still paid for itself.

It's already delayed by 3/4 years (luckily not 10).

If they've already converted H1s to ATC then can convert T1s.

I don't know if it's literal ATC that was added to the H4s (H1s were gone in 2017).

Also, what about T1 cars 5184 and 5185 (RT-90 and RT-91)? Are you saying they didn't install ATC on them when they converted them to transit inspection vehicles in 2018?

Back then ATC wasn't even live on the whole line? In any case, I just hope those will be gone along with the rest of the fleet, rather than sticking around another 2 decades afterward.

 

[urbanclient]

People aren't worried about being robbed, assaulted or shoved onto the tracks by thugs. It's the nutters that we're all worried about.

If we have solid fare enforcement the need for policing will decline as the ratio of sane, sober and stable transit users increases.

That's fair. Transit police can conduct fare enforcement as well. Knowing the risk-averse culture surrounding Toronto transit, I can't see TTC security or employees getting involved in physically preventing nutters from hopping fare gates.

 

[T3G]

Brad Bradford calls for police at every TTC station

And cue another several billion dollar expansion to the police budget while the transit system and roads crumble ...

It's already delayed by 3/4 years (luckily not 10).

So far.

In any case, I just hope those will be gone along with the rest of the fleet, rather than sticking around another 2 decades afterward.

Have you seen how long the H1 and H4 work cars outlasted the passenger fleet? How does it make ANY sense to convert a pair of cars to a fairly lightly used work set only to junk it together with the revenue fleet???????????

 

[Northern Light]

Brad Bradford calls for police at every TTC station, platform-edge doors to improve safety

Brad Bradford calls for police at every TTC station, platform-edge doors to improve safety

City councillor and mayoral hopeful Brad Bradford is calling for more safety measures at TTC stations, including the much-talked-about installation of platform-edge doors along the transit system. The Ward 19 Beaches-East York councillor also wants to see police patrols as well as standardized...

toronto.citynews.ca

Broken clock... twice a day...

Vancouver has police with firearms that patrol the Skytrain, are we going to wait until the problems in Toronto get worse before implementing similar measures?

Metro Vancouver Transit Police - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A handful of officers fixed to a handful of stations does little for the other 60+ stations. You don't see Vancouver Transit Police at every station, but they do patrols and often are first to respond to unruly patrons on the Skytrain.

Toronto police expand community officer program to the TTC — but not all riders are on board - NOW Toronto

Toronto police are expanding a community policing program to the TTC subway system, with dedicated officers now patrolling sections of Line 1 Yonge University.

nowtoronto.com

There are 82 Stations including the underground stations on Crosstown and Finch.

Full Coverage for open hours, at 2 officers present at all times, is 8 officers per station ( 2 shifts per day, and officers are scheduled 7 on, 7 off, so you need 2 sets of 2sets of 2).

That's 656 officers; there are currently 5,433 authorized uniform positions.

So that would be a ~12% increase.

With direct, and indirect costs, you're likely looking at an operating budgetary impact in the range of 130M - 150M per year.

That's stiff.

If we're going to do that, then, I think we need to can the Special Constable Unit of TTC entirely to partially offset the cost.

We also need to drop the number of Fare Enforcement people who deploy to each site where they do checks, if they're going to be supported by police.

 

[urbanclient]

There are 82 Stations including the underground stations on Crosstown and Finch.

Full Coverage for open hours, at 2 officers present at all times, is 8 officers per station ( 2 shifts per day, and officers are scheduled 7 on, 7 off, so you need 2 sets of 2sets of 2).

That's 656 officers; there are currently 5,433 authorized uniform positions.

So that would be a ~12% increase.

With direct, and indirect costs, you're likely looking at an operating budgetary impact in the range of 130M - 150M per year.

That's stiff.

If we're going to do that, then, I think we need to can the Special Constable Unit of TTC entirely to partially offset the cost.

We also need to drop the number of Fare Enforcement people who deploy to each site where they do checks, if they're going to be supported by police.

Appreciate the analysis.

To clarify, I am not pro-give more money to the current police. I am pro-separate police force for transit. It's not a wholly novel concept as it is done in many cities throughout the world.

Canning the TTC special constable unit is exactly what would and should happen if Toronto got its own dedicated transit police. Putting cops at every station is not what I am advocating for, that would be a ridiculous increase in costs for the city and/or region. Dedicated transit police theoretically should be better trained to deal with potential jumpers, nutters and fare evasion, moreso than the TPS. Mental health and de-escalation etc....

You don't see Vancouver Transit Police at every station, but they do patrols and often are first to respond to unruly patrons on the Skytrain.

 

[81-717]

So far.

Always gotta throw in this kind of negativity, huh? There is 0 excuse for it to be delayed further now that the contract was awarded.

Have you seen how long the H1 and H4 work cars outlasted the passenger fleet? How does it make ANY sense to convert a pair of cars to a fairly lightly used work set only to junk it together with the revenue fleet???????????

It makes as much sense as not converting ANY M1/H2/5/6 cars for same purposes. Those T1s would already end up in work service for a good 15 years (2018 – early 2030s), which is comparable to the H1/4, and with the rest of the T1 fleet gone they'll be harder to get parts for since they're not as technologically simple as the H1–4s.

 

[Admiral Beez]

That's fair. Transit police can conduct fare enforcement as well. Knowing the risk-averse culture surrounding Toronto transit, I can't see TTC security or employees getting involved in physically preventing nutters from hopping fare gates.

I was at Union Station's TTC concourse a few months ago and I woman started screeching and flaying about. Four TTC security guards were there, walked over to her and said cut it out. I'd hurried past. Upon which she walked away from them, down onto the platform and inevitably onto my train, where she began screaming at all the passengers. I thought to myself, if this transit system will not keep disruptive nutters off their property, then I won't use it unless I must. It's just so different elsewhere in the world, for example in Singapore I recall how clean the subways were and how polite and quiet everyone was. Of course a transit system can only but pull from the society in which it operates, and Toronto seems to have surrendered so much of the public realm to the addicted and mentally ill population and to the homeless industrial complex that purposely concentrates the issue into the downtown core.

 

[SubHuman]

People aren't worried about being robbed, assaulted or shoved onto the tracks by thugs. It's the nutters that we're all worried about.
If we have solid fare enforcement the need for policing will decline as the ratio of sane, sober and stable transit users increases.

I think the TTC and local authorities have had more and better trained security over about the last 12-18 months.
But the main problem seems to be that these people, who are dangerous to themselves and problematic for others, are continually apprehended, then apparently released almost immediately -- "person was said to have been apprehended three times under the Mental Health Act in a span of 24 hours ... hospital keeps releasing them".
That's not the responsibility of the TTC or the City of Toronto. It's the province that has to fix a system that is apathetic, irresponsible, and not accountable in enforcing its law.

 

[T3G]

Always gotta throw in this kind of negativity, huh? There is 0 excuse for it to be delayed further now that the contract was awarded.

As I have told you a million times, awarding a contract is only the first step in a long journey, which any point can be beset by problems. The contract may be completed on time; it does not have to be. The clock does not reset to zero now, just because they waffled on awarding the replacement contract doesn't mean there aren't more delays in the pipeline, and no one has ever estimated the turnaround time on a new rolling stock contract by counting the murky years in which actions were delayed and hemmed and hawed about. You can call acknowledging this very real fact negativity; I call it being pragmatic. And, to add, if I were superstitious, I would say that every confident assertion you make that the T1 replacement will go off without a hitch and be completed on time and the H5s will be avenged is tempting fate to make the replacement contract into an unmitigated disaster. Why you feel the need to declare victory when the battle has scarcely begun is beyond me.

But hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.

It makes as much sense as not converting ANY M1/H2/5/6 cars for same purposes. Those T1s would already end up in work service for a good 15 years (2018 – early 2030s), which is comparable to the H1/4, and with the rest of the T1 fleet gone they'll be harder to get parts for since they're not as technologically simple as the H1–4s.

Ever stopped to think that they had way more subway cars than they needed work cars, and that's why not every class was represented in the work car fleet?

No, of course not, you'll just wave it away as another conspiracy against the Hawkers, and by extension, you as an individual, because you're apparently the only one who never got something that they wanted out of life.

15 years is not a meaningful time frame, other properties have been known to utilize work equipment longer than that. And what will replace the T1 work cars exactly? The TRs are not designed for easy conversion for work service, so they'll either have to keep the T1s going, or they'll have to expense for new replacement work cars. Which may be the option chosen if the T1s are in bad condition, but would be an idiotic one to take if further use for less money can be extracted out of the T1.

 

[APTA-2048]

I was at Union Station's TTC concourse a few months ago and I woman started screeching and flaying about. Four TTC security guards were there, walked over to her and said cut it out. I'd hurried past. Upon which she walked away from them, down onto the platform and inevitably onto my train, where she began screaming at all the passengers. I thought to myself, if this transit system will not keep disruptive nutters off their property, then I won't use it unless I must. It's just so different elsewhere in the world, for example in Singapore I recall how clean the subways were and how polite and quiet everyone was. Of course a transit system can only but pull from the society in which it operates, and Toronto seems to have surrendered so much of the public realm to the addicted and mentally ill population and to the homeless industrial complex that purposely concentrates the issue into the downtown core.

Maybe it’s not than anyone has surrendered anything, but that the homelessness and mental health crisis is just now too big to ignore? Sounds like we should actually get serious about it instead of trying to push it under the rug and pretend like everything is ok.

 

[urbanclient]

It makes as much sense as not converting ANY M1/H2/5/6 cars for same purposes. Those T1s would already end up in work service for a good 15 years (2018 – early 2030s), which is comparable to the H1/4, and with the rest of the T1 fleet gone they'll be harder to get parts for since they're not as technologically simple as the H1–4s.

I hate that the T1s have to be replaced so early when they are not that old in the grand scheme of subway rolling stock (oldest are 31 years and counting), but I think @81-717 is right in saying new trains are more or less needed for ATC. It's not worth it to retrofit that if the useful life is maybe another 15-20 years. A new fleet should last 40 years. Frankly, the T-1s were an outdated design for something built between 1995-2001 anyways. Even if outdated, it would've been worth it to overhaul them and extend their life, were it not for the impending implementation of ATC predicated on a new signalling system etc...

If they've already converted H1s to ATC then can convert T1s

To be pedantic: When Line 1 had a mixed fleet during the early phases of the installation in the early 2010s, the non-Toronto Rockets (H series, T-1s) were never converted to be ATC-capable, certainly not the H1s that were retired in 1999? I don't know if "H1s" was a typo. Or do you mean AC air conditioning for the H1s?

 

[Admiral Beez]

Maybe it’s not than anyone has surrendered anything, but that the homelessness and mental health crisis is just now too big to ignore?

No one is suggesting the addiction, mental health and homelessness crisis should be ignored. But that's beyond the scope of the TTC.

Sounds like we should actually get serious about it instead of trying to push it under the rug and pretend like everything is ok.

Absolutely. I don't think anyone is pretending it's okay. But it's not the TTC's job to fix it. Instead the TTC must do what it can within the society it finds itself to protect its product/service, image and paying customers.

 

[81-717]

As I have told you a million times, awarding a contract is only the first step in a long journey, which any point can be beset by problems. The contract may be completed on time; it does not have to be. The clock does not reset to zero now, just because they waffled on awarding the replacement contract doesn't mean there aren't more delays in the pipeline, and no one has ever estimated the turnaround time on a new rolling stock contract by counting the murky years in which actions were delayed and hemmed and hawed about.

3–4 years from the moment the contract is sealed is plenty enough time for trains to start being delivered. It happened with the TRs in spite of production delays, and those didn't turn out an "unmitigated disaster" other than being boring & bland.

Why you feel the need to declare victory when the battle has scarcely begun is beyond me.

In case you haven't noticed, I'm not declaring victory until I see it, I'm merely trying to be optimistic about achieving milestones leading up to victory in this uphill battle, while you keep trying to ruin said optimism.

Ever stopped to think that they had way more subway cars than they needed work cars, and that's why not every class was represented in the work car fleet?

No, of course not, you'll just wave it away as another conspiracy against the Hawkers, and by extension, you as an individual, because you're apparently the only one who never got something that they wanted out of life.

No, all I see is more evidence confirming my worst suspicions (the H5/6s were 100% deliberately excluded because they used an "orphan" technology).

15 years is not a meaningful time frame, other properties have been known to utilize work equipment longer than that.

Hopefully that'll be true of the surviving H4s.

And what will replace the T1 work cars exactly?

At least, no T1s should replace any of the surviving H4s, since the H4s should be easier to maintain.

The TRs are not designed for easy conversion for work service

I would hope not, nor would I ever advocate for that.

or they'll have to expense for new replacement work cars

Something they've done fairly recently.

I hate that the T1s have to be replaced so early when they are not that old in the grand scheme of subway rolling stock (oldest are 31 years and counting)

I hate that they're at risk of being replaced so late compared to previous cars, because they are that old by Toronto standards (I hate that the H6s had to be replaced so early, or didn't have to be, but were anyway).

 

[chrisw]

Video on the removal of Tunnel Fireproofing containing Abestos at North York Centre Station [5 min].

 

[APTA-2048]

No one is suggesting the addiction, mental health and homelessness crisis should be ignored. But that's beyond the scope of the TTC.

Absolutely. I don't think anyone is pretending it's okay. But it's not the TTC's job to fix it. Instead the TTC must do what it can within the society it finds itself to protect its product/service, image and paying customers.

Sure, you solve the problem on the TTC. But let’s be honest, you are just moving the problem around. It would no longer be a problem for you, but it gets passed on to someone else.

I get people don’t want to see people suffering from homelessness and mental health crises. But I just want to be clear, constantly kicking people off the TTC is not a real solution. Sure it makes people feel better. But it really just serves to keep people blind to a serious problem we have.