[Northern Light]

Just confirming, these trains are essentially upgraded Toronto Rockets, correct?

In the sense that these will be open-gangway trains of standard TTC length, and made in Thunder Bay, yes.

There are some tweaks, mechanically and appearance wise.

 

[smallspy]

Why the H4s but not the MR-73s, R46s, R68s, and other cars of that era?

What makes you think that they aren't?

Just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

Dan

 

[81-717]

What makes you think that they aren't?

Just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

Dan

Because if they were, surely the STM and MTA wouldn't opt to keep the '73s and R68s around for another decade with their original chopper/SMEE technology, but rather have them replaced together with the '63s and R46s?

 

[nfitz]

So what's the other $442 million for - that's hardly a small sum to brush aside?

Subject to being re-elected. Otherwise will be cancelled by the PC's.

It's still months to an election. It could be over year until the Conservatives are in the position to cancel things. I'd be shocked if the funding hadn't already been done and dusted by then.

In the sense that these will be open-gangway trains of standard TTC length, and made in Thunder Bay, yes.

It's an open tender isn't it? I'm not sure that Thunder Bay will have the price advantage it used to have, now that there's more competent financial management with Alstom.

 

[drum118]

So what's the other $442 million for - that's hardly a small sum to brush aside?

It's still months to an election. It could be over year until the Conservatives are in the position to cancel things. I'd be shocked if the funding hadn't already been done and dusted by then.

It's an open tender isn't it? I'm not sure that Thunder Bay will have the price advantage it used to have, now that there's more competent financial management with Siemens.

You also have CCRR who has a plant on the east coast.

If it is a real open tender like it should be, a few other bidders will surface with CCF and Stadler in the US been part of the list. Since the builder of Ontario Line 3 trains is off shore and will be asked to bid on them as well.

Downside to all of this is replacing the existing signaling that needs to be shorter than Line 1 completion timetable

 

[nfitz]

You also have CCRR who has a plant on the east coast.

If it is a real open tender like it should be, a few other bidders will surface with CCF and Stadler in the US been part of the list. Since the builder of Ontario Line 3 trains is off shore and will be asked to bid on them as well.

Downside to all of this is replacing the existing signaling that needs to be shorter than Line 1 completion timetable

I don't know what CCRR is (other than the California Central Railroad). And CCF has been owned by Bombardier/Alstom for decades.

I'm not sure having them manufactured in the USA is going to fly - especially in the age of Buy America. I'd think that Canadian content requirements would result in at least final assembly being in Canada; if not Ontario.

 

[Undead]

He meant CRRC.

 

[drum118]

I don't know what CCRR is (other than the California Central Railroad). And CCF has been owned by Bombardier/Alstom for decades.

I'm not sure having them manufactured in the USA is going to fly - especially in the age of Buy America. I'd think that Canadian content requirements would result in at least final assembly being in Canada; if not Ontario.

That should be CRRC and CAF. What I get for trying to do 3 things at the same time

Ottawa LRV's were assembly in Ottawa after been built oversea. Same most likely happen for the Ontario Line 3 cars and can see it happing on the subway cars to a point..

 

[nfitz]

That should be CRRC and CAF. What I get for trying to do 3 things at the same time

CAF I can see if they have an Ontario assembly facility.

I really don't see us ordering trains from the Chinese government. Especially as the political situation worsens, and will likely worsen even more if the Conservatives get elected, and with the inevetible invasion of Taiwan.

 

[APTA-2048]

CAF I can see if they have an Ontario assembly facility.

I really don't see us ordering trains from the Chinese government. Especially as the political situation worsens, and will likely worsen even more if the Conservatives get elected, and with the inevetible invasion of Taiwan.

CRRC doesn’t really have a stellar reputation given all the issues they’ve had with the orders they do have in North America. The worst is probably the Philadelphia bilevel commuter car order.

 

[Bojaxs]

In the sense that these will be open-gangway trains of standard TTC length, and made in Thunder Bay, yes.

There are some tweaks, mechanically and appearance wise.

My mistake. I misunderstood this announcement. I was under the impression that Alstom already got the contract, and that Thunder Bay was going to manufacture these trains, but it appears that's not the case.

I thought these schematics were confirmed for what the trains would look like on Line 2.

 

[81-717]

I thought these schematics were confirmed for what the trains would look like on Line 2.

I sure hope they'll look like that, and not like the proposed "update" akin to the 81-765.

 

[TossYourJacket]

My mistake. I misunderstood this announcement. I was under the impression that Alstom already got the contract, and that Thunder Bay was going to manufacture these trains, but it appears that's not the case.

I thought these schematics were confirmed for what the trains would look like on Line 2.
View attachment 615895View attachment 615896

That's the previous design for the new trains, it's changed slightly since then, mostly at the front end. This image below, from the UT story on the funding for the new trains is the updated look (and was announced a few months ago, i think when the provincial funding was confirmed). Similar overall to the design you posted, but a bit more polished (and distinct from the TRs at the front). Also, lights near the doors to show when they're closing! (like in Montreal, or on the streetcars)

In terms of procurement, it's most likely Alstom will build them in Thunder Bay due to the similarities to the existing trains, but the TTC will need to follow a procurement process to avoid potential legal issues. Sole Sourcing a $2.3 Billion contract is a nightmare for a government agency so most likely the strategy here is to write the specifications for the trains so it's tailored to be Alstom building them in TB, but if another manufacturer can meet all the contract requirements for less, they'd get the contract. My guess is there'll be a requirement to build them in Ontario, of which that requirement alone will take out most of the major competition (and is also very on-brand for the Ford government in terms of their preference for things to be made in Ontario).

 

[Bojaxs]

Is there any work that has to be done on Line 2 before they can get these new trains to operate on the line?
Once all the T1's have been completely phased out, will we see the TTC simply have both the original TR's and these new trains operating interchangeably on lines 1,2 & 4?

 

[DSCToronto]

Is there any work that has to be done on Line 2 before they can get these new trains to operate on the line?
Once all the T1's have been completely phased out, will we see the TTC simply have both the original TR's and these new trains operating interchangeably on lines 1,2 & 4?

They need to upgrade the signal system.