[Steve X]

I’m pretty sure the 241km range is TTC’s baseline for the maximum range for dispatching the bus. TTC requires the bus to not go under 25-30% charge plus operating conditions for this city. This might account for winter where charges last much less than a day on warm spring day without AC.

The manufacturer always claim a better number as they test in prime condition with standardized loading and road condition.

 

[Bordercollie]

I’m pretty sure the 241km range is TTC’s baseline for the maximum range for dispatching the bus. TTC requires the bus to not go under 25-30% charge plus operating conditions for this city. This might account for winter where charges last much less than a day on warm spring day without AC.

The manufacturer always claim a better number as they test in prime condition with standardized loading and road condition.

The easiest solution is in station charging during layovers. The power is already there to service the subways. Or park buses overnight at the station to charge (provided that they don't need to go back to the garage). They can be cleaned at the stations.

 

[T3G]

The easiest solution is in station charging during layovers. The power is already there to service the subways. Or park buses overnight at the station to charge (provided that they don't need to go back to the garage). They can be cleaned at the stations.

Layovers are not a solution, because that is not time the driver (or bus) has for themselves. That is recovery time to allow the vehicle to get back on schedule if it's late - if the vehicle is sufficiently late, it has to turn right around and go back. (Notice, in the service summary, how many routes have little to no terminal time at all). I have no idea why the union is okay with this, by the way, but that's off topic.

Parking at the station to charge overnight is also not a solution, unless they follow a rock solid rotation that wouldn't mean a bus would miss out on scheduled maintenance. Considering how common run swapping is (where two vehicles change their schedule amongst each other), I don't see this as being feasible.

 

[PL1]

The easiest solution is in station charging during layovers. The power is already there to service the subways. Or park buses overnight at the station to charge (provided that they don't need to go back to the garage). They can be cleaned at the stations.

Even top-up charge infrastructure at the stations would be good. It would have been good to figure out if distributed charging was better than (or complementary to) charging at the garages

 

[Bordercollie]

Even top-up charge infrastructure at the stations would be good. It would have been good to figure out if distributed charging was better than (or complementary to) charging at the garages

Start with Rush hour extras. Park them at the station during off peak to charge.

There is no other option considering charging facilities at garages are limited.

Unless you are going to build parking charging lots.

 

[ownthesky]

Stringing wires is easy. How easy is finding places to put substations, and feeders to supply them?

As always, many countries across Europe and even in Vancouver have no problem setting these up, but Toronto exceptionalism requires us to think it’s impossible here and requires some unique implementation.

The best part about modern trolley buses is that if there's a challenging part of a line to string wire, you just run through it on battery and skip the install.

 

[drum118]

Layovers are not a solution, because that is not time the driver (or bus) has for themselves. That is recovery time to allow the vehicle to get back on schedule if it's late - if the vehicle is sufficiently late, it has to turn right around and go back. (Notice, in the service summary, how many routes have little to no terminal time at all). I have no idea why the union is okay with this, by the way, but that's off topic.

Parking at the station to charge overnight is also not a solution, unless they follow a rock solid rotation that wouldn't mean a bus would miss out on scheduled maintenance. Considering how common run swapping is (where two vehicles change their schedule amongst each other), I don't see this as being feasible.

That what they do in Europe and some US cities. It takes about 10 seconds to raise or lower the the charging system. Drivers still got a 10+ minute break before being back in service. Some are topping off and other are not.

The longest I saw in Europe for a bus to be charge either at a terminal or the end of the line was 10 minutes and we were on the bus charger for both types of charring locations . The routes were long and both were using artic's as that was the standards for most systems.

I cannot say how long the US charging took as I saw one place using few Proterra this year compared to the past at a terminal not being charge and that was Greensboro SC. Saw 17 last year and none had to be charge considering there are chargers at the terminal. Those using NFI and Gillig ebuses must be using plug in since there only a few of them in the fleet. I was told in Denmark it was common to have a bus out 24-36 hours with cleaning being done at the end of the route from time to time. I saw in Charlotte NC the few of the two type of ebuses sitting the yard as normal buses and no sign of the plug in system.

Dayton trolleybus being used as ebuses will put up the poles at the terminal or the yard to be top off or fully recharge.

There is a cost to build on route charging stations, but cuts down on the amount of deadheading time to put one in or out of service for TTC. Brampton has some on route charging stations as well the yard and someone who knows more about Brampton can speak to it more.

 

[Steve X]

This whole battery shenanigans is nuts. The battery in your phone or laptop looses 15% of its capacity by their 500 cycle. These batteries will lose 20-30% of it's range in 5 years time. The 60 pilot buses are near that age now so TTC should have a better understanding of battery performance. I would love to see the capital cost to replace them during the midlife refurbishment. Maybe they would consider some new alternative. I don't think it would be hydrogen after the whole CNG failure.

 

[drum118]

This whole battery shenanigans is nuts. The battery in your phone or laptop looses 15% of its capacity by their 500 cycle. These batteries will lose 20-30% of it's range in 5 years time. The 60 pilot buses are near that age now so TTC should have a better understanding of battery performance. I would love to see the capital cost to replace them during the midlife refurbishment. Maybe they would consider some new alternative. I don't think it would be hydrogen after the whole CNG failure.

What are you going to replace the diesel buses with to meet the green goal of 2040 if not ebuses?? As for CNG, there are a fair number of systems using it today and more moving to it as well away from it with Hamilton being the closest system using it. Yes TTC has some issues using CNG, but that can be fix to a point by using ebuses, hybrid and trolleybuses.

The 5 years maybe coming for NFI, but not the other 2 for clear data and where is NovaBus data?? There is a huge cost to go green and at this time, ebuses is the best option for TTC along with hybrid.

TTC marches to its own beat while rest of the world leaves it behind going green.

Has TTC looked at trying hydrogen as a pilot project like Mississauga, Edmonton, Halifax, Winnipeg and few others in Canada?? About 20 or so systems in the US with about 1500 buses world wide. Cost saving is

"The average Mississauga transit bus travels about 70,000 kilometers in a year. The fuel efficiency of a typical diesel transit bus, like those in Mississauga’s MiWay fleet, is generally around 35 to 50 liters per 100 kilometers (L/100 km). That means that they burn about 23,000 liters of diesel annually. That turns into about 60 metric tons of CO2.

For the hydrogen buses, that will still be 30 metric tons. For battery electric buses in Mississauga today, it would be about 7.5 tons. For battery electric buses in the Mississauga of the future, or the Quebec and Manitoba of today, it would be about 0.2 tons."

 

[CapitalSeven]

Canadian transit operators have very little competence around new technologies. I recall that Ottawa bought hybrids back in the aughts and city council instructed OC to use them on urban routes with frequent stops and measure the fuel savings. OC came back a few years later and said that that was too hard, and they had simply used them interchangeably on long haul routes. As usual no one was criticized, let alone fired.

 

[dowlingm]

Has TTC looked at trying hydrogen as a pilot project like Mississauga, Edmonton, Halifax, Winnipeg and few others in Canada?? About 20 or so systems in the US with about 1500 buses world wide. Cost saving is

We’ve been over this with the GO hydrogen stuff. Other than making Enbridge richer, in whose interest is it to go that route? Hydrogen isn’t likely to get easier to store or use at the speed of battery materials, and its energy density isn’t changing at all.

The performance of current battery tech is concerning, yes, but was to be somewhat expected given the temperature swings TTC operates in. At some point there may need to be consideration of pivoting to at least some on-route charging in the mean time, as other agencies have done.

I would personally like to see BETBs in the mix on heavy demand routes which for whatever reason (e.g. route grades) haren’t practical for light rail. I am simply not willing to say magic wands can be waved and wires strung in the short term because we can see how long it takes to work with hydro on fixed charging installs.

 

[APTA-2048]

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[APTA-2048]

A first look at the future of Wheel-Trans​

As we celebrate Wheel-Trans’ remarkable journey over the past 50 years, here is an exciting peek into the future. Wheel-Trans is committed to eliminating emissions by 2040 by fully transitioning to battery-electric vehicles.

Currently, the TTC is procuring five pilot Wheel-Trans vehicles (pictured on the left). The first few vehicles are expected to arrive and begin testing in 2026.

Through this transition, the TTC’s primary goal remains to provide fully accessible vehicles that meet customer needs. Therefore, the Advisory Committee on Accessible Transit (ACAT) will be a key evaluator of the new battery-electric buses.

 

[RapidTransit]

A first look at the future of Wheel-Trans​

As we celebrate Wheel-Trans’ remarkable journey over the past 50 years, here is an exciting peek into the future. Wheel-Trans is committed to eliminating emissions by 2040 by fully transitioning to battery-electric vehicles.

Currently, the TTC is procuring five pilot Wheel-Trans vehicles (pictured on the left). The first few vehicles are expected to arrive and begin testing in 2026.

Through this transition, the TTC’s primary goal remains to provide fully accessible vehicles that meet customer needs. Therefore, the Advisory Committee on Accessible Transit (ACAT) will be a key evaluator of the new battery-electric buses.

View attachment 679930

Good looking bus.

I wonder if they can use this for the high Park shuttle. I know their looking for an EV buses as well.

Looks like its big enough for community bus service as well.

 

[Bordercollie]

A first look at the future of Wheel-Trans​

As we celebrate Wheel-Trans’ remarkable journey over the past 50 years, here is an exciting peek into the future. Wheel-Trans is committed to eliminating emissions by 2040 by fully transitioning to battery-electric vehicles.

Currently, the TTC is procuring five pilot Wheel-Trans vehicles (pictured on the left). The first few vehicles are expected to arrive and begin testing in 2026.

Through this transition, the TTC’s primary goal remains to provide fully accessible vehicles that meet customer needs. Therefore, the Advisory Committee on Accessible Transit (ACAT) will be a key evaluator of the new battery-electric buses.

View attachment 679930

Brampton transit has been doing a demo or dry run with a vehicle like this. I see it driving around different places.