T3G
Senior Member
In fairness, none have retired since last fall. But last year they got rid of a ton of them - less than half remain in service now.
Were they really more of a nightmare to maintain than the NG hybrids?
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- Thread starter drum118
- Start date
Were they really more of a nightmare to maintain than the NG hybrids?
Bordercollie
Senior Member
APTA-2048
Senior Member
Newer version of the Cummins engine wasn’t as robust as the one in the first batch of hybrids.
drum118
Superstar
smallspy
Senior Member
Those aren't being retired en mass. They are being retired because they are due to be retired, and the ones that are off the road now have failed in such a way to not make it worthwhile fixing. Some were retired early, sure. But some will last longer than the TTC expected - this is always what happens.
Dan
Bordercollie
Senior Member
You still see 1200's and 1300's out all day so the fact that they are not used as rush hour extras shows you that they are still hanging on. How are they to drive thou?
drum118
Superstar
It was this way before ding an ling came to power, The cost to move to Ebuses is the killer these past few year for everyone that they have jump +$100,000's a year and longer delivery time. Same goes for the hybrid buses to the point New Flyer doesn't have an XE60 these days.
The Fed's have kick start TTC on the ebuses and as long funds keep coming, we will see more of them. If one looks at other systems in the GTAH, its a mix bag for ebuses and some systems holding onto buses longer. CNG is trying to make an in road back into the market with mixed review,
The states is a mixed bag as who is funding new buses for systems within the state from cities, state and fed's. Proterra had the inside track in the beginning, but fail to gain on it that they close the doors leaving systems up in the air that had them that a number of systems parked them due to various issues. Nashville, Greensboro, Lexington and Louisville to name a few have their on street chargers out of service and haven't seen other systems that had Proterra buses in some time to see what they are doing these days.
As for BYD, Indianapolis is the only place I have seen their 60 footer buses. I haven't seen any NovaBus ebus nor a Gillig ebus. Basely at this time, its a New Flyer market for ebuses.
APTA-2048
Senior Member
The TTC is looking to acquire 200 hybrid buses in 2027, and perhaps further. Slowing down the transition to battery-electric a bit. It seems pretty reasonable based on the funding available, infrastructure available, and performance of the current fleet.
Amare
Senior Member
Finally some sense is coming back into play here.
drum118
Superstar
RapidTransit
Active Member
The initial funding was good for an unproven product. 340 EV buses. With the slow delivery of these buses, you would think they would have time to install charging stations for them.
RapidTransit
Active Member
Which garages are left to get EV buses.
Queensway of course. I guess Wilson, and Micnicol?
Too bad they can't use Danforth garage. A former garage with buses with no exhaust issues for the community to worry about. Downtown, ideal area for electric buses.
drum118
Superstar
TTC7.3 - Green Bus Program Update
Consideration Type: ACTIONOrigin
(July 17, 2025) Report from the Executive Director, Innovation and SustainabilityRecommendations
It is recommended that the TTC Board:1. Receive this report for information.
Summary
The Green Bus Program was first approved by the Board in November 2017 and included the introduction of the latest generation of hybrid-electric buses as a transitional step toward achieving a fully zero-emissions fleet by 2040. The program is aligned with provincial, federal, and international targets for emissions reduction. It is a key action under the City of Toronto’s TransformTO Net Zero Strategy and the TTC’s own 5-Year Corporate Plan, as well as its Innovation and Sustainability Strategy.The TTC began its transition to a zero-emissions network with a strong foundation—over 50% of ridership already served by electric and emission-free subway and streetcar systems. As of today, approximately 77% of total ridership is on zero- or low-emission vehicles, reflecting the integration of hybrid and battery-eBuses (eBuses) into the fleet. Looking ahead, by 2031, the TTC aims for 50% of its bus fleet to be fully zero-emission.
With the retirement of the last Orion VII Clean Diesel buses in 2024 (the last buses in the fleet without diesel particulate filters), the TTC has phased out its highest-emitting buses. Since the Green Bus Program was initiated, fleet-wide greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions have been reduced by over 25% through the procurement of 591 new hybrid-electric buses and 208 battery-electric buses. By the end of Q1 2026, the current order of 340 eBuses will have grown the zero-emission fleet to 400, making the TTC’s bus fleet the greenest of large transit systems in North America.
Once our fleet is fully electrified, this transition is expected to avoid approximately 290,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide equivalent and 125 tonnes of criteria air pollutant emissions annually between 2040 and 2050. These emissions reductions are estimated to yield $460 million in avoided social costs of carbon and $2.8 million in healthcare costs avoided. This one action will reduce the TTC’s direct organization-wide emissions by ~28% by 2030.
Due to the timing of funding approvals, bus production lead times, and the need to replace aging buses at the end of their useful life, the next step in the program is to procure 200 hybrid-electric buses for delivery in 2026 through Q1 of 2028 (with contract language to additional hybrid buses should there be a need). As a transition technology, these new hybrids are proven reliable, impose no range limitations, and require no electrification infrastructure to be installed in advance. Further, they allow the time needed for the TTC to manage the organizational changes required for large-scale eBus operations.
With the procurement of these hybrid buses, we remain on track to achieve the TransformTO NetZero target of 2040. Funds totalling $1.2 billion are available in the Approved Capital Budget and Plan, subject to availability and approval of matching funds through intergovernmental grants, to advance electrification over the next five years.
As the TTC advances one of the leading fleet electrification programs in North America, it remains committed to learning and sharing with others. This report includes appendices intended to detail progress, risks, and opportunities in order to further this industry collaboration.
Financial Impact
2025-2034 Approved Capital Budget and PlanThe 2025-2034 Approved Capital Budget and Plan for the Green Bus Program identifies a need for $4.6 billion in funding over the 10-year period, of which $1.7 billion is funded, as detailed in Table 1 below:
Table 1 – Green Bus Program: 2025-2034 Approved Capital Budget and Plan
| 2025-2034 Capital Budget & Plan (000's) | 2025-2029 | 2030-2034 | 10-Year Total | |
| eBus Purchase | Approved Capital Budget & Plan | 1,054,345 | 135,904 | 1,190,249 |
| CIP Unfunded | 571,211 | 1,406,442 | 1,977,653 | |
| Total Capital Investment Plan | 1,625,556 | 1,542,346 | 3,167,902 | |
| Charging Systems | Approved Capital Budget & Plan | 512,357 | - | 512,357 |
| CIP Unfunded | 464,036 | 473,397 | 937,433 | |
| Total Capital Investment Plan | 976,393 | 473,397 | 1,449,790 | |
| Green Bus Program Total | Approved Capital Budget & Plan | 1,566,702 | 135,904 | 1,702,606 |
| CIP Unfunded | 1,035,246 | 1,879,839 | 2,915,085 | |
| Total Capital Investment Plan | 2,601,948 | 2,015,743 | 4,617,691 |
The $1.7 billion in approved funding includes the remaining funding to deliver 340 eBuses and 248 charge points with federal funding support through the Zero Emission Transit Fund. The 2025-2034 Approved Capital Budget and Plan included $1.2 billion in required matching City funding to prepare for future bus procurements and intergovernmental grant funding opportunities.
The TTC’s transition to a fully electric bus fleet is a long-term investment aimed at reducing emissions and improving financial sustainability. Although eBuses have higher upfront capital and operating investment than diesel and hybrid buses, they are anticipated to offer long-term net savings through:
- Net fuel savings
- More stable energy pricing
Lower maintenance requirements
Access to external funding
Long-term infrastructure amortization
This analysis is continuously evolving as we gain more insights into transitioning the fleet to electric vehicles. It will be updated as new information becomes available and as advancements occur in procurement strategies, bus technologies, and charging systems. See Appendix A for additional details on the methodology used for the cost-benefit analysis.
The Executive Director, Finance has reviewed this report and agrees with the financial impact information summary.
Background Information
(July 17, 2025) Report and Appendices A-K from the Executive Director, Innovation and Sustainability on Green Bus Program Updatehttps://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2025/ttc/bgrd/backgroundfile-257225.pdf
Steve X
Senior Member
You should ask which garage has regularly operating EV buses, which is Arrow Rd (many buses), Mount Dennis (some buses), Eglinton (some buses) and Birchmount (a few buses).
Wilson, Malvern and Queensway currently doesn't have any allocated to them yet. McNicoll has a few but their charging points are not ready so those are sidelined.
dowlingm
Senior Member
“400 buses” how many of the original 60, particularly the 35 BYDs and Proterras, are turning wheels these days?
The TTC was supposed to have ceased all hybrid purchases last year, and it’s good that reality in terms of manufacturer capacity and garage charging progress is being recognized rather than restrict purchasing, even if it means some (non-heater) diesel consumption through 2038 or right up to 2040.
The TTC was supposed to have ceased all hybrid purchases last year, and it’s good that reality in terms of manufacturer capacity and garage charging progress is being recognized rather than restrict purchasing, even if it means some (non-heater) diesel consumption through 2038 or right up to 2040.