smallspy
Senior Member
While a small number of the BYDs and Proterra's have been sidelined as parts sources for the rest of the fleets, a substantial proportion of both fleets is still used regularly.
Dan
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- Thread starter drum118
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Dan
Northern Light
Superstar
@Steve Munro is out w/his look into the Ebus/Green bus report linked on the previous page.
stevemunro.ca
I think it would be fair to say that writ large the buses are underperforming, and that they are imposing operating costs which could add up to tens of millions per year with full fleet conversion, due to low range and extra deadhead costs as vehicles need swapping throughout the day.
I have to say, this was never a program that I was enthused about. I have nothing against electric vehicles, but spending billions on fleet w/o full have proven reliability and w/o a proper assessment of costs.......may prove to be an albatross on the system for a generation.
Battery performance/range is a key issue, and is improving, but is way off where the TTC said/aimed it to be.
They wanted 450km a charge, and on their newest/best batteries, they are getting 241km.
That's less than 54% of spec.
I'm not suggesting we abandon the idea...........but maybe we need to slow-walk it until we range closer to spec.
The Troubled State of TTC Green Buses
Updated July 21, 2025 at 11:20am: Despite the extensive catalogue of issues with the Green Bus program, the TTC Board wasted no time in adopting the report without debate on an enthusiastic motion …
stevemunro.ca
I think it would be fair to say that writ large the buses are underperforming, and that they are imposing operating costs which could add up to tens of millions per year with full fleet conversion, due to low range and extra deadhead costs as vehicles need swapping throughout the day.
I have to say, this was never a program that I was enthused about. I have nothing against electric vehicles, but spending billions on fleet w/o full have proven reliability and w/o a proper assessment of costs.......may prove to be an albatross on the system for a generation.
Battery performance/range is a key issue, and is improving, but is way off where the TTC said/aimed it to be.
They wanted 450km a charge, and on their newest/best batteries, they are getting 241km.
That's less than 54% of spec.
I'm not suggesting we abandon the idea...........but maybe we need to slow-walk it until we range closer to spec.
T3G
Senior Member
I really don't understand why we didn't learn this lesson after we bought 700 hybrids over the course of 3 years that turned out to be lemons. Let the small towns where no one uses transit be the early adopters of the tech, and the big cities once the new tech has proven itself to be up to scratch. If only there existed institutional memory at the TTC.
APTA-2048
Senior Member
I think 300+ buses was quite a bit too soon. The trial phase of the 60 buses could have been longer. We could have also just bought another 20 of the next generation buses for further evaluation instead of committing to over 300.
I do think battery-electric buses aren’t going anywhere, though. We saw the same development phase with the diesel-electric hybrid buses. BAE Systems now offers a very reliable and viable product. But to get to that point, it took about 20 years.
I do think battery-electric buses aren’t going anywhere, though. We saw the same development phase with the diesel-electric hybrid buses. BAE Systems now offers a very reliable and viable product. But to get to that point, it took about 20 years.
Northern Light
Superstar
I don't have a problem with the TTC trying stuff out; but I'd like to see better due diligence, pre-pilot/delivery here. Then I'd like to see the pilot phase long enough to deliver a quality assessment on a relatively small number of vehicles.
Finally, I don't want us to be installing infrastructure in multiple garages before we've even done the damned assessment. We went all-in far too quickly.
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APTA-2048
Senior Member
drum118
Superstar
Not true and how small are they?. I have seen systems in the US that are small with a fair number ebuses over HEV. Greensboro had 17 Proterra in their fleet last year in service which was about 40% of the fleet with very few on the road this year due to lack of parts. A number of systems have parked the buses due to on going issues with the company and lack of parts, Then you have a number of systems in the GTAH area getting ebuses these days.
At the same time, NA is well behind Europe moving to ebuses to the point a fair number systems in Europe have been fully converted to ebuses for years as well as this year. Between now and 2030, most of Europe systems will be fully ebuses with a few like Paris that will not be done until 2035 due to the 7000 buses that are needed to be fully converted.
A number of small and large systems haven't try other types of buses yet as far as I can tell. Some system have move to CNG while other that were moving to CNG have scape it as well HEV and gone back to diesel like Nashville.
I saw my first hydrogen power bus this year in Colombia SC that was New Flyer, but was unable to get more than one shot as I was driving and not able to find a spot to park close to get more shots. Looks the same as an ebuses and the XD40. Seen only one system using Gillig ebuses.
APTA-2048
Senior Member
Yes I know which systems have battery-electric buses. But generally, smaller systems are taking a slower pace toward electrifying their fleet. Some are not even considering it at all, and yes that includes a number of systems in Ontario. Some smaller systems are also reevaluating the speed at which they electrify their fleet. The market for battery-electric buses in Canada and the US has shifted a little bit. Nova Bus was initially confident that they could only sell battery electric buses, but now they have decided to continue diesel and CNG production for the foreseeable future after feedback from their customers.
dowlingm
Senior Member
The reality folks need to face on here is that the TTC may only buy buses that are available. Steve’s summary notes that the intent to buy more hybrids is subject to market availability, and the EPA engine regs change meant that vendors had opted to skip (Nova IIRC) or hold back pending sufficient customer interest (New Flyer IIRC) launching a Hybrid with the newest engine. To my mind, TTC contributed to this hesitancy by their declaration of being done with diesel buys by 2025, when that date could have been 2027-28, but the desire for a green press release got ahead of them.
One thing that occurred to me while reading Steve’s post was whether at a point when they had more they could use, TTC could consider leasing some eBuses to neighbouring agencies, should they have spare charger capacity but down the delivery queue for vehicles. I recall TTC loaning buses to Durham when there was that bus garage fire.
One thing that occurred to me while reading Steve’s post was whether at a point when they had more they could use, TTC could consider leasing some eBuses to neighbouring agencies, should they have spare charger capacity but down the delivery queue for vehicles. I recall TTC loaning buses to Durham when there was that bus garage fire.
APTA-2048
Senior Member
This is only true for articulated buses. And is more to do with Cummins not producing an EPA 2027-compliant engine for use in an articulated diesel-electric hybrid bus. An EPA 2027-compliant engine will for use in 40-foot diesel-electric hybrid buses will be available. And so far, it looks like both New Flyer and Nova Bus will offer 40-foot hybrid buses with that engine.
Voltz
Senior Member
Just string overhead wires, it's not hard.
Busy routes would do great with trolley buses, the whole route does not need to be under wire, trolley buses have small battery packs for going off route, or branches,
Then consider battery buses for less frequent routes.
I agree that this was rushed into.
Busy routes would do great with trolley buses, the whole route does not need to be under wire, trolley buses have small battery packs for going off route, or branches,
Then consider battery buses for less frequent routes.
I agree that this was rushed into.
drum118
Superstar
Capital cost to install then; yearly operation cost to maintain then; larger workforce to handle all overhead with a higher operation cost yearly; need to be battery to go off route if there is an issue on the line; mess intersections where routes cross each other as well turning onto them; service bays to work on the overhead like the LRV's; New Flyer is the only Canadian company that can do them unless going off shore for them or trying to get Gillig in the US to supply them in small batches with long delivery time;.
Which routes do you see them on??
I happen to be in Dayton Ohio in June that is the closes location for trolley buses and saw 50% if not more of the trolleybuses been used as ebuses.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Surprise surprise. They should never adopt these techs without a clear demonstration of sustained operation with the cited gains and reliability but they someone need to look like they are forward thinking.@Steve Munro is out w/his look into the Ebus/Green bus report linked on the previous page.
The Troubled State of TTC Green Buses
Updated July 21, 2025 at 11:20am: Despite the extensive catalogue of issues with the Green Bus program, the TTC Board wasted no time in adopting the report without debate on an enthusiastic motion …
I think it would be fair to say that writ large the buses are underperforming, and that they are imposing operating costs which could add up to tens of millions per year with full fleet conversion, due to low range and extra deadhead costs as vehicles need swapping throughout the day.
I have to say, this was never a program that I was enthused about. I have nothing against electric vehicles, but spending billions on fleet w/o full have proven reliability and w/o a proper assessment of costs.......may prove to be an albatross on the system for a generation.
Battery performance/range is a key issue, and is improving, but is way off where the TTC said/aimed it to be.
They wanted 450km a charge, and on their newest/best batteries, they are getting 241km.
That's less than 54% of spec.
I'm not suggesting we abandon the idea...........but maybe we need to slow-walk it until we range closer to spec.
And remember the Island Ferries?
AoD
dowlingm
Senior Member
I found the report I imperfectly recalled which referred to 40’ hybrids and uncertainty about an Cummins X10 variant (and you’re right that 60’ was not in the cards at all then), but I see it’s now 15 months on from that so the market may have moved in the meantime
Staff Report #1 – Bus Replacement – Contract Award – London Transit Commission
www.londontransit.ca
dowlingm
Senior Member
Stringing wires is easy. How easy is finding places to put substations, and feeders to supply them?