BCTed said:
Not exactly sure what you mean. The fact that only so many individuals can afford a team is a function of price.
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There are many startup costs in addition to the franchise fees which significantly reduces the number of Canadians who could afford it even if NHL charged $0. For example, player contracts are guaranteed, the owner needs to provide a surety for payment of the players full 5+ year contracts even if revenues fail to materialize.
 
BCTed said:
Not exactly sure what you mean. The fact that only so many individuals can afford a team is a function of price.

Regardless, I don't think it is going to be easy for the NHL to get $2 billion per team for the expansion fees, though they will probably get there. The NHL has had some notoriously shaky ownership of teams over the years. If there were an entity out there that was willing to plunk down $3 billion US for a team in Hamilton, then I believe Hamilton would get a team. But that entity simply does not seem to be out there.
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There are plenty of prospective ownership groups in the US that could front that price, while in Canada, many of the richest entities already have teams so the list of people that could still make moves at that price is very small. Great examples of US entities and companies already involved in sports (or those who have been indicated to be looking to buy expansion teams) with high net worth that could make moves are Tilman Fertitta or Dan Friedkin ($11B and $8B, Houston), Stan Kroenke/KSE ($18B, San Diego), Dan Gilbert/REG ($25B, Cleveland), Hunt Family ($25B, Kansas City), Michael Dell ($125B, Austin), and Mat Ishbia ($10B, Phoenix).

The best-case candidate for Hamilton, Larry Tanenbaum’s Kilmer Sports Ventures, was only worth about $2B USD when it was last valued in 2023 at the time of the OMERS buy-in. Assuming Rogers buys out KSV’s 25% MLSE stake in 2026, at the most recent valuation of $10B USD, that would be at least a $2.5B USD cash-out and probably makes up most of KSV’s valuation, which is likely still cutting it very close, especially since TD Coliseum would need further upgrades (NHL is now also mandating owners spend up to an additional $1B for a new arena/upgrades) to be NHL-ready.

Even Quebec City’s best-case candidate, a Pierre Karl Peladeau/Luc Poirier joint ownership group (the two apparently made a bid for the Coyotes in late 2024 before the move to SLC was announced), only has a combined net worth of around $3.5B. Their move made sense for a $1.2B team, but likely does not for a $2B team.

Most of our remaining potential owners are effectively priced out unless they were to pool together on ownership or gain some corporate backing similar to MLSE, most likely one of the other telecoms, but I don’t see that happening anytime soon.
 
None of this takes into account the fact that the NHL doesn't want to weigh more of its revenue stream on Canada and its less valuable currency. I don't see any reason why the NHL would even consider Hamilton or elsewhere when there are a number of areas and owners in the US willing to put that money down.

If Buffalo had a shaky owner and no real new arena prospects it might be an interesting proposal to move them down the road but they don't and they don't so it's not going to happen.
 
Buffalo's arena is 30 years old and it sounds as if their may be some funding issues brewing: Erie County plans to walk away from KeyBank Center lease when it expires in October | wgrz.com https://share.google/SQGrjnT1kVVmRztrA

It's why I wonder about some sort of arrangement where the Sabres play a portion of their schedule in Hamilton on a permanent basis.

The NHL may be asking 2B, but will they get it?
 
The most recent NFL team sold for just over $6B 2 years ago (Washington). Is an NHL franchise worth a third of a NFL team?

I'd also say that a owner doesn't need to be Canadian. If an owner wants to see the best return on their investment, Hamilton would represent the most lucrative market available, it's why so many attempts have been made in the past to put a team here.
 
berklon said:
Hamilton's never getting an NHL team. Best to just get over it and move on.
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I don't disagree, but my point is why support the Leafs or NHL in general? I'm not supporting the entities that prevent our entry. The irony is if more people here did the same, it would represent a huge blow to NHL revenues and revenue sharing, making shaky American markets vulnerable to relocation.

If we managed to get a loud and effective boycott going in this the age of protest, we'd have a NHL team here real fast.
 
I have to laugh at all this Hamilton NHL team talk. For those saying that it's a possibility, you do realize that the Leafs have veto rights over any team entering their market (which includes Hamilton).

Why would the Leafs agree to allow another team to enter their market and take away market share?

The TD Coliseum will never have to worry about the problem of accommodating an NHL team, it's not happening.
 
Amare said:
I have to laugh at all this Hamilton NHL team talk. For those saying that it's a possibility, you do realize that the Leafs have veto rights over any team entering their market (which includes Hamilton).

Why would the Leafs agree to allow another team to enter their market and take away market share?

The TD Coliseum will never have to worry about the problem of accommodating an NHL team, it's not happening.
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Which is the exact reason people round these parts should not be laugh supporters.
 
Amare said:
I have to laugh at all this Hamilton NHL team talk. For those saying that it's a possibility, you do realize that the Leafs have veto rights over any team entering their market (which includes Hamilton).

Why would the Leafs agree to allow another team to enter their market and take away market share?

The TD Coliseum will never have to worry about the problem of accommodating an NHL team, it's not happening.
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The Leafs don't have any veto "rights" of any kind over the placement of a team.
Only the NHL head office and board of governors, where the Leafs have one vote of 33, has a say in where expansion teams go.

What MLSE has is rights related to broadcasting, and those can be bought for cash.
They are bought and sold all the time. It has been done many times in the past few years with the collapse of the Regional Sports Networks.
Anyone can get a team in Hamilton if they are willing to pay, and you don't need one or two owners anymore, teams can have limited partnerships as co-investors now (the NBA pioneered this) that are basically private equity funds with hundreds of underlying investors.

If the right owner shows up at Gary Bettman's office, has a believable business plan to get the necessary revenue, and has evidence of the appropriate financial commitment and backing, it would happen. That's all it takes. The only question is could anyone make that claim for the arena. But the point is the Leafs have zero say in it.
 
Mihairokov said:
That's the going rate for an average NHL franchise, so yes.

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I'm no financial expert, but I know enough that companies play around with valuations, there is a difference between Value and Valuation...valuation....estimation.

The Sens were the most recent team sold, and that was for $950M. I think Andleaur only bought 90 - 95% so the valuation was around 1B. We're to believe valuations have doubled in a year?

Gary likes to spin tales about how good the league is doing, it's his job afterall.

A better measure would be to look at McDavid salary, the best NHL player in his prime makes $12M/y.

SGA just signed for $71.25M/yr. Or go look at MLB, two $700M contracts and a $500M in the last 2 years. The Jay's just gave a 40 year old Max Scherzer a $15M "show me" contact.

The NHL is far far behind the other big 3 sports, and they take their most loyal fans (us) for granted. If people could only pry their eyes away from the TV watching the Leafs lose every year and join a boycott, we could actually make the NHL sweat.
 
Jonny5 said:
The Leafs don't have any veto "rights" of any kind over the placement of a team.
Only the NHL head office and board of governors, where the Leafs have one vote of 33, has a say in where expansion teams go.

What MLSE has is rights related to broadcasting, and those can be bought for cash.
They are bought and sold all the time. It has been done many times in the past few years with the collapse of the Regional Sports Networks.
Anyone can get a team in Hamilton if they are willing to pay, and you don't need one or two owners anymore, teams can have limited partnerships as co-investors now (the NBA pioneered this) that are basically private equity funds with hundreds of underlying investors.

If the right owner shows up at Gary Bettman's office, has a believable business plan to get the necessary revenue, and has evidence of the appropriate financial commitment and backing, it would happen. That's all it takes. The only question is could anyone make that claim for the arena. But the point is the Leafs have zero say in it.
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Thank you for saying this. It's a common misunderstanding. The leafs don't have a veto, but they have a defacto veto.

There was actually a letter published in The Spec years back between MLSE and the NHL that essentially showed MLSE thought they had a veto and the NHL disagreed.

MLSE is pretty much the richest and most influential franchise in the NHL. The NHL wants to keep them happy. They don't have a veto, but the NHL has never and likely will never take a formal vote on a NHL franchise in Hamilton. The reason being that you could prove collusion of there was ever a vote. In legal speak, all the NHL has go say us "we've never considered or discussed a Hamilton franchise".

It's the same reason there won't be a team in Waterloo, some people suggest just go past the 50 mile limit... lol no, there is no magical line. The NHL will simply not entertain a vote anywhere in Southern Ontario unless MLSE allows the vote.

All the smoke and mirrors from the NHL is the reason why Balsille tried to go through the courts, he couldn't get fair consideration from the NHL itself, so had to involve a 3rd party. Damn he got so close.

Maybe one day enough people will wake up and vote with their wallets. It's the only way we can hope to get a team.
 
Yorken Bay said:
The Sens were the most recent team sold, and that was for $950M. I think Andleaur only bought 90 - 95% so the valuation was around 1B. We're to believe valuations have doubled in a year?
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This sale, which was a sale to ensure a team stayed in the same location, is not equivalent to the discussion here which is relevant to either an expansion sale or a team selling and then moving. The NHL is willing to accept lower bids as they're hands are tied on keeping teams in markets.
Yorken Bay said:
Gary likes to spin tales about how good the league is doing, it's his job afterall.
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Would you like to argue that the NHL is in a worse place in 2025 than it was in 1990? I find that difficult to believe.
Yorken Bay said:
Maybe one day enough people will wake up and vote with their wallets. It's the only way we can hope to get a team.
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You think boycotting the NHL is going to encourage them to open up in your backyard? They're not exactly bereft of other options.
 
Yorken Bay said:
I'm no financial expert, but I know enough that companies play around with valuations, there is a difference between Value and Valuation...valuation....estimation.

The Sens were the most recent team sold, and that was for $950M. I think Andleaur only bought 90 - 95% so the valuation was around 1B. We're to believe valuations have doubled in a year?

Gary likes to spin tales about how good the league is doing, it's his job afterall.
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The Ottawa Senators are not an average team in terms of valuation, they are very much below average. They are currently 29/32 in the valuation rankings at $1.18B USD. The average is close to $2B USD.
 
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Jonny5 said:
The Leafs don't have any veto "rights" of any kind over the placement of a team.
Only the NHL head office and board of governors, where the Leafs have one vote of 33, has a say in where expansion teams go.

What MLSE has is rights related to broadcasting, and those can be bought for cash.
They are bought and sold all the time. It has been done many times in the past few years with the collapse of the Regional Sports Networks.
Anyone can get a team in Hamilton if they are willing to pay, and you don't need one or two owners anymore, teams can have limited partnerships as co-investors now (the NBA pioneered this) that are basically private equity funds with hundreds of underlying investors.

If the right owner shows up at Gary Bettman's office, has a believable business plan to get the necessary revenue, and has evidence of the appropriate financial commitment and backing, it would happen. That's all it takes. The only question is could anyone make that claim for the arena. But the point is the Leafs have zero say in it.
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Agreed that the "right owner" is the key.
 
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