[generalcanada]

Ok, so ....you know that's not what's being built, right?

Sigh.

This is the current iteration:

View attachment 573891


Most of us expect less glass in any actual, constructed version, should that come to pass.



This (below) sounds like agreement to you?:

View attachment 573893

I think you need to re-read the piece.

oh, nice picture from a different angle.Im not sure if you think thats a gotcha or something. In any case, we want more glass apperently? Thats what they designed the park/path above the water park for? I don't understand. Why are we complaining about less glass now? doesn't make sense. I couldn't care less whether it's the original full glass box or walking path, but it appeals to some people

Well obviously, he doesn't say he agrees LOL but this is definitely agreement with tourist traps.

A spectacular art gallery is an object of civic pride, a draw for international tourists, and a type of place that brings in people on foot and sends them out into the street looking for cocktails and tapas, ready to tell their friends at home about the glories of the city. Toronto politicians don’t understand such places, even though Ontario Place was one of them – in 1971.

The original point again:

>e. According to a study of
26 American downtowns that I mentioned earlier, such visitors account for approximately
two thirds—(61.7 percent) of downtown activity (see Figure 3), significantly more than
residents, who account for about 10 percent of activity (11.2 percent), and office workers,
who account for a little over a quarter of activity (27.1 percent).30 The cities that have
recovered the most, the study concludes, are those that had “the highest share of daily
visitors downtown in 2019.”

I think you need to re-read the piece more closely


As for the "millions of visitors". I ignored it because it doesnt mean anything

Op4a and those against it use the stat as an indication the site doesnt need redevelopment, but what theyre missing is that it includes the decades old Budweiser stage, That floating waterpark that went for like a month, the cirque de soleil that was on an ashfault desert where the old waterpark used to be. All of which are very popular

The point is cherrypicking data doesnt help anyone.

 

[Northern Light]

oh, nice picture from a different angle.Im not sure if you think thats a gotcha or something.

That is not from a different angle, the design changed, completely, this is a resubmission, which we discussed extensively in thread.

In any case, we want more glass apperently? Thats what they designed the park/path above the water park for? I don't understand. Why are we complaining about less glass now? doesn't make sense. I couldn't care less whether it's the original full glass box or walking path, but it appeals to some people

I am not going to relitigate the endless discussions that have been had already again. You have an outlier position and you know it.

Well obviously, he doesn't say he agrees LOL

You just said he agreed w/the authors, now you concede he did not. Do you see the problem?

As for the "millions of visitors". I ignored it because it doesnt mean anything

Except that it does mean something, that OP is not sitting empty with zero or near-zero use.

I have no difficulty with any argument that the status quo needs work. I just don't think Therme is the right work.

But while one can argue for whatever form of change one wishes, one cannot argue that Ontario Place is abandoned/empty, it is not.

It is neglected, and portions of the site have restricted access, something imposed by this government.

 

[generalcanada]

That is not from a different angle, the design changed, completely, this is a resubmission, which we discussed extensively in thread.

You missed my point, The facility from the angle facing northeast over the water is by no means a "sealed box without windows" which is what Alex says it is. Even the older version was the complete opposite of that

You just said he agreed w/the authors, now you concede he did not. Do you see the problem?

No you still missed my point again, I never said he specifically writes that he agrees, just that he did

Lets try again then with more clarity.

The original author said this:

>e. According to a study of
26 American downtowns that I mentioned earlier, such visitors account for approximately
two thirds—(61.7 percent) of downtown activity (see Figure 3), significantly more than
residents, who account for about 10 percent of activity (11.2 percent), and office workers,
who account for a little over a quarter of activity (27.1 percent).30 The cities that have
recovered the most, the study concludes, are those that had “the highest share of daily
visitors downtown in 2019.”

Alex said this about tourists noting that tourist traps are good for the city. This IMO is agreeing with the authors? Do you disagree?

A spectacular art gallery is an object of civic pride, a draw for international tourists, and a type of place that brings in people on foot and sends them out into the street looking for cocktails and tapas, ready to tell their friends at home about the glories of the city. Toronto politicians don’t understand such places, even though Ontario Place was one of them – in 1971.

Except that it does mean something, that OP is not sitting empty with zero or near-zero use.

I have no difficulty with any argument that the status quo needs work. I just don't think Therme is the right work.

But while one can argue for whatever form of change one wishes, one cannot argue that Ontario Place is abandoned/empty, it is not.

It is neglected, and portions of the site have restricted access, something imposed by this government.

There is 1 major difference though, "Ontario Place" can and should be defined as 2 different things.
1. the old waterpark, theme park, children's village, and log flume ride together being "Ontario Place"
2. Both islands together and everything in it.

Personally, if someone says "Ontario Place" I don't immediately think of Budweiser stage, My mind goes right to the log flume ride. That to me is "Ontario Place"

The log flume ride has been argued before, but I still maintain that by definition it is abandoned.
Which by my definition I can argue that "Ontario Place is abandoned."

Ontario Place as a theme park was closed not by this government but by the previous liberals who also would have preferred to redevelop the site to a private party.
also, we have talked before about different possible uses here before. But at this point barring a complete Suprise 180 It's just not going to happen with this government.

 

[rdaner]

I have a tiny question about the Florida report: why are we using just North American downtowns? Wouldn’t success mean moving away from that model?

 

[Northern Light]

I have a tiny question about the Florida report: why are we using just North American downtowns? Wouldn’t success mean moving away from that model?

1) The report is primarily about waterfronts, and not downtowns, they are mentioned as a contributing/adjacent issue; in respect of waterfronts the report is very global citing many cities around the world.

2) He's citing statistics available to him that others are tracking, notably, his U of T colleagues. They didn't track those stats for other world cities (essentially downtown occupancy rates). Many non-North American cites also have development and employment concentration levels that aren't entirely analogous to the North American context.

 

[evandyk]

If this thing is built, it'll end up as transparent as the ROM "crystal". There is a lot of equipment required to run pools like that and it's not going to be sitting under a glass bubble. They'll also discover partway through that it snows in Toronto and the structure needs to be stronger than they thought.

 

[3Dementia]

In the last 25 years Toronto got an average of about 42 inches of snow spread across 53 days in winter months (less than one inch average). Last winter (winter?) it was 20” total spread over only 20 days (1” average).

Barring a NYC-style Nor-Easter event… is this really a structural challenge engineers can’t handle? Have our indoor botanical gardens like Allen Gardens ever collapsed?

 

[FastidiousHack]

If this thing is built, it'll end up as transparent as the ROM "crystal". There is a lot of equipment required to run pools like that and it's not going to be sitting under a glass bubble. They'll also discover partway through that it snows in Toronto and the structure needs to be stronger than they thought.

Snow loads are not afterthoughts; structural glass exists.

… is this really a structural challenge engineers can’t handle?

Structural Engineers can accomplish almost anything... if you're willing to pay (anti-gravity sold separately).

[Obligatory: Doug Ford is corrupt, this should be public space.]

 

[evandyk]

I don't know the extent to which it's true, but the story that was bandied about when the ROM crystal was completed was that it became unfeasible to make it out of transparent glass as rendered in part because of snow.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I don't know the extent to which it's true, but the story that was bandied about when the ROM crystal was completed was that it became unfeasible to make it out of transparent glass as rendered in part because of snow.

I am sure you could have done it (e.g. the Shangri-La glass box) - the issue that was put forward was that artifacts and light generally doesn't mix.

AoD

 

[jje1000]

I don't know the extent to which its true, but the story that was bandied about when the ROM crystal was completed was that it became unfeasible to make it out of transparent glass as rendered in part because of snow.

I recall below was the earliest rendering of the crystal, but it soon changed to a cladding resembling the final design.

IMO the ROM Crystal's visual failures (i.e. the heavy handed details + the awfully dull mismatched siding) probably came after the design was finalised during the later detailing & sourcing phase, as sequential compromises to the design.

 

[christiesplits]

If this thing is built, it'll end up as transparent as the ROM "crystal". There is a lot of equipment required to run pools like that and it's not going to be sitting under a glass bubble. They'll also discover partway through that it snows in Toronto and the structure needs to be stronger than they thought.

100%

It will look much closer to an airport hanger than the pre-value engineered ROM Crystal.

 

[christiesplits]

Great Twitter thread by Alex replying to Richard Florida's Globe opinion piece.

 

[Northern Light]

While id agree for the most part, the only thing id take exception with would be the idea that he wants to demolish it.

I think he wouldnt care what happens to it, just that the science center as we know it moves to Ontario Place. Hes said in the past "i dont care what gets built there, condos schools, more museums by the city."
Condos, museums, parks, he doesnt care, not his problem anymore.

I don't think he wants to demolish it for ideological reasons, and perhaps not even over the future fate of the site, though I would hardly take anything the Premier says at face value......but I digress.

There is a clear reason from his perspective to demolish.

It's to force the Ontario Place relocation ahead, with no way, for all practical purposes to un-do the decision. "But I want to keep the old building, let's just fix it" carries much less weight when there is no old building to fix.

Equally, then, if the Science Centre project is to sit atop a very expensive parking garage that is a de facto subsidy to Therme, pushing ahead with the OSC means pushing ahead with the parking.......

Ahhh, I see dominoes lining up.

***

I say the above as someone not as attached as many here to the existing building, and who doesn't have a problem, inherently with moving it to OP. I do have issues w/the design details offered to date as well as proposed transit access, but I once more digress.

 

[Natika33]

Coincidentally, I passed by OP today.

West island (where Therme will go):

One can barely see the sphere from this angle.

They're doing some work on the pods, bridges & the west gate area.

And they're doing something in the parking lot to the east of the Budwieser stage, but not sure what.