[generalcanada]

Therme commissioned Richard Florida to write a report. And not surprisingly, Richard Florida thinks Therme is great! Just what we need to become a world-class city, in fact!

https://creativeclass.com/reports/Great_Waterfront_Great_City.pdf

I took a deep dive. Honestly not impressed by this guy. He's coming off way too "think about the economy" here. To be fair that is the opinion of most of the general population. but he proudly says he supported google sidewalk labs LOL I dunno man.

That said, he's pretty much echoing what I've been saying all along, the whole 100% park idea is centered around the idea that local residents want a park more than people from USA want something to do while they're here. Again, from a centrist-like capitalist stance.

Opposition to the redevelopment of Ontario Place has been largely based on the alternative idea of returning the area to its natural state. Such a park would be lovely, but like all passive parks, by design and definition, it would mainly serve nearby residents. The debate about a passive park versus a destination attraction is not unique to Toronto; similar arguments have occurred in many communities. Such debates typically reflect a schism between nearby residents and homeowners, who prefer a quiet, less-utilized park that brings in fewer tourists and “outsiders,” versus a much larger group of regional residents who would be attracted to and be much more likely to frequent signature destinations and attractions. The reality, of course, is that Ontario Place was developed as a provincial attraction literally from the get go.

Thats not to say he has to be wrong since he brings the stats to back it up to say that tourists are in fact more important than residents.

Toronto’s and most other cities’ central business districts can no longer depend on commuters and residents alone for their economic health. Fortunately, they also serve people from the surrounding region as well as from more distant parts of the world. Tourism and business travel provides critically important revenue. According to a study of 26 American downtowns that I mentioned earlier, such visitors account for approximately two thirds—(61.7 percent) of downtown activity (see Figure 3), significantly more than residents, who account for about 10 percent of activity (11.2 percent), and office workers, who account for a little over a quarter of activity (27.1 percent).30 The cities that have recovered the most, the study concludes, are those that had “the highest share of daily visitors downtown in 2019.

It brings a question thats not really talked about more. Who are downtowns for? Residents? Office workers? Tourists? All of the above? How do you do that? Do you build more hotels than condos/appartments? Do you build less hotels and more residential? If you do, is your city sustainable?

 

[generalcanada]

Not a surprise to me at all, there was virtually no chance of it being subjected to an EA.

Things are even more fun when Ford directly controls and hand picked the individuals who appoint judges in the province.

OOOH that's a new one I haven't heard before. Judges are biased.

 

[Amare]

OOOH that's a new one I haven't heard before. Judges are biased.

Of course they are everyone has their biases, judges are no exception. It's common to hear of "left-leaning" judges and "right-leaning" judges even when they are supposed to have impartiality when making judgements.

 

[Dr. Snoot]

Of course they are everyone has their biases, judges are no exception. It's common to hear of "left-leaning" judges and "right-leaning" judges even when they are supposed to have impartiality when making judgements.

This is a dangerous line of conspiracy, as it undermines confidence in the judiciary without any real evidence of bias.

First, there is a difference between provincial court judges (who conduct bail hearings, hear matters relating to provincial offences under the Highway Traffic Act, Fire Code, etc., and hear some criminal matters) and superior court judges, who hear all civil matters and most criminal matters. Only provincial court judges are appointed by the province. This case was not heard by a provincial court judge.

Unlike the United States, superior court judges in Canada are not elected; but appointed by the federal government. Prospective judges are recommended by an independent commission that focuses mostly on the person's professional qualifications.

I am a lawyer and I have appeared before dozens of superior court judges at numerous levels of court. I have also read hundreds, if not thousands, of court decisions on all subject matters. I have never come across overt political bias. In fact, I think the Canadian judiciary is remarkably good at setting aside their personal biases and remaining apolitical.

Here, the province passed a statute that specifically exempts the project from environmental assessment. The judge reached the only conclusion available to them at law.

In fact, had they found differently, it would have been evidence of bias against the government instead of neutrality.

 

[evandyk]

Things are even more fun when Ford directly controls and hand picked the individuals who appoint judges in the province.

Justin Trudeau picks the judges for the Ontario Superior Court. Ford appoints members of the advisory committee for Ontario provincial court judges, but they don't sit on the Divisional Court.

 

[evandyk]

I just checked, and two of the judges were appointed by Trudeau and one by Harper. Which any lawyer (as pointed out by Snoot above) knows does not matter in the Canadian context as judges are well regarded as being independent of politics in their decision-making.

 

[UtakataNoAnnex]

This is a dangerous line of conspiracy, as it undermines confidence in the judiciary without any real evidence of bias.

First, there is a difference between provincial court judges (who conduct bail hearings, hear matters relating to provincial offences under the Highway Traffic Act, Fire Code, etc., and hear some criminal matters) and superior court judges, who hear all civil matters and most criminal matters. Only provincial court judges are appointed by the province. This case was not heard by a provincial court judge.

Unlike the United States, superior court judges in Canada are not elected; but appointed by the federal government. Prospective judges are recommended by an independent commission that focuses mostly on the person's professional qualifications.

I am a lawyer and I have appeared before dozens of superior court judges at numerous levels of court. I have also read hundreds, if not thousands, of court decisions on all subject matters. I have never come across overt political bias. In fact, I think the Canadian judiciary is remarkably good at setting aside their personal biases and remaining apolitical.

Here, the province passed a statute that specifically exempts the project from environmental assessment. The judge reached the only conclusion available to them at law.

In fact, had they found differently, it would have been evidence of bias against the government instead of neutrality.

Or the tl,dr: The judges are held over a barrel when it comes neutrality for good or bad here, so they can't really be faulted for doing their jobs. I guess if we want change with the laws on this, then we have put pressure on the legislature via our constituency offices and/or at the polls on election day instead. And for what that is worth.

 

[tiffer24]

Ontario awarded nearly $1 million in contracts to various companies to write a business case on moving the Ontario Science Centre to Ontario Place on Toronto's waterfront, The Canadian Press has learned.

A report in December from the auditor general found that a proposal in the spring of 2023 to government decision makers to relocate the science centre, including the business case, noted that a "site-wide parking solution" was needed to meet Ontario's lease obligations with Therme. It proposed that new parking be integrated with the new science centre building "in order to dispel public/stakeholder concerns relating to cost and impact on the environment," the auditor wrote.

The business case itself was "incomplete," the auditor general said, including not factoring in financing or incremental parking costs.

https://www.cp24.com/news/ontario-a...iness-case-on-moving-science-centre-1.6926580

 

[PL1]

Ontario awarded nearly $1 million in contracts to various companies to write a business case on moving the Ontario Science Centre to Ontario Place on Toronto's waterfront, The Canadian Press has learned.

A report in December from the auditor general found that a proposal in the spring of 2023 to government decision makers to relocate the science centre, including the business case, noted that a "site-wide parking solution" was needed to meet Ontario's lease obligations with Therme. It proposed that new parking be integrated with the new science centre building "in order to dispel public/stakeholder concerns relating to cost and impact on the environment," the auditor wrote.

The business case itself was "incomplete," the auditor general said, including not factoring in financing or incremental parking costs.

https://www.cp24.com/news/ontario-a...iness-case-on-moving-science-centre-1.6926580

When we continually elect this government of clowns, we should expect a circus.

I'm aware that these reports are rarely started with a blank slate; there is some goal in mind. But it's so very disappointing that the government is so obviously spending public funds to benefit private companies.

 

[generalcanada]

Ontario awarded nearly $1 million in contracts to various companies to write a business case on moving the Ontario Science Centre to Ontario Place on Toronto's waterfront, The Canadian Press has learned.

A report in December from the auditor general found that a proposal in the spring of 2023 to government decision makers to relocate the science centre, including the business case, noted that a "site-wide parking solution" was needed to meet Ontario's lease obligations with Therme. It proposed that new parking be integrated with the new science centre building "in order to dispel public/stakeholder concerns relating to cost and impact on the environment," the auditor wrote.

The business case itself was "incomplete," the auditor general said, including not factoring in financing or incremental parking costs.

https://www.cp24.com/news/ontario-a...iness-case-on-moving-science-centre-1.6926580

Anyone wanna ask how much the Ontario Line business case costs?
No? no one? COOL

 

[UtakataNoAnnex]

When we continually elect this government of clowns, we should expect a circus.

I'm aware that these reports are rarely started with a blank slate; there is some goal in mind. But it's so very disappointing that the government is so obviously spending public funds to benefit private companies.

...governing for everyone..with money. /sigh

Edit: And in B4 that's true with all governments...just some demonstratively more so than others.

 

[Northern Light]

@AlexBozikovic has a good column on Ontario Place out.

At first blush, it's one many of us here would agree with, with a theme of nix Therme and keep OP as some variation of a public park

Ontario Place needs to be opened up to the city as a park

Having the waterfront site as parkland will provide the most value for Toronto and its residents, not Therme Canada’s controversial waterpark plan

www.theglobeandmail.com

What adds some extra value here is Alex' takedown of Richard Florida and John Alschuler, both rightly earned.

 

[generalcanada]

@AlexBozikovic has a good column on Ontario Place out.

At first blush, its one many of us here would agree with, with a theme of nix Therme and keep OP as some variation of a public park

Ontario Place needs to be opened up to the city as a park

Having the waterfront site as parkland will provide the most value for Toronto and its residents, not Therme Canada’s controversial waterpark plan

www.theglobeandmail.com

What adds some extra value here is Alex' takedown of Richard Florida and John Alschuler, both rightly earned.

Right so, @AlexBozikovic makes good articles, this one misses the mark.

A spectacular art gallery is an object of civic pride, a draw for international tourists, and a type of place that brings in people on foot and sends them out into the street looking for cocktails and tapas, ready to tell their friends at home about the glories of the city. Toronto politicians don’t understand such places, even though Ontario Place was one of them – in 1971.

Then there is Therme Canada’s spa. That is a largely windowless box that requires the total demolition of an eight-acre island, hundreds of millions of dollars worth of water infrastructure and a huge parking garage – so its visitors can eat lunch inside, exit with their wet hair, get in the minivan and go home. It has no business in a central city. That is why existing Therme facilities are in the European boonies in Bavaria and Bucharest.

UUUH Windowless box? And this is the older worse version.

OKEEE. Is that the new talking point? I thought we were talking about the complete opposite.
Also somehow agrees and disagrees with the original author about tourists who said:

>e. According to a study of
26 American downtowns that I mentioned earlier, such visitors account for approximately
two thirds—(61.7 percent) of downtown activity (see Figure 3), significantly more than
residents, who account for about 10 percent of activity (11.2 percent), and office workers,
who account for a little over a quarter of activity (27.1 percent).30 The cities that have
recovered the most, the study concludes, are those that had “the highest share of daily
visitors downtown in 2019.”

I mean if youre going to make a call for a park, then do so. But get your facts straight

I wouldnt call it a "takedown" when he agrees with the authors LOL

 

[Northern Light]

Right so, @AlexBozikovic makes good articles, this one misses the mark.


UUUH Windowless box? And this is the older worse version.
View attachment 573882

Ok, so ....you know that's not what's being built, right?

Sigh.

This is the current iteration:

Most of us expect less glass in any actual, constructed version, should that come to pass.

I wouldnt call it a "takedown" when he agrees with the authors LOL

This (below) sounds like agreement to you?:

I think you need to re-read the piece.

 

[Northern Light]

For those interested Richard Florida's report on the Waterfront, funded by Therme..........

But which does cover much more than just Therme, I will directly link it here:

https://creativeclass.com/reports/Great_Waterfront_Great_City.pdf

FWIW, I'm not a huge fan of the overall report, which i would call 'thin' on substance and actionable items, and in describing impacts and outcomes.