[SR95]

What is the strategic value of adding additional density to a corridor that has zero chance of seeing expanded transit service in the short to medium term future? Do we want more cars on the roads, because the shmucks who'd live there would have no way of getting downtown reasonably?

Because the reason its taken so long to get ANY higher order transit in this city is that the thinking at the provincial level is that there isn't enough ridership/density that necessitates investment in transit in this city.

Same reason why it took so long to get an LRT, and same reason why we're getting a BRT on Dundas instead of an LRT.

It's a chicken and egg problem, should the transit come first then the density, or the other way around?

I've read that in the early days of NYC's development they built subways going into (what was at the time) empty fields, but I guess we do things differently here now.

 

[T3G]

It's a chicken and egg problem, should the transit come first then the density, or the other way around?

I've read that in the early days of NYC's development they built subways going into (what was at the time) empty fields, but I guess we do things differently here now.

But what you're advocating for is building new developments in what are effectively transit deserts, the reverse of what happened in NYC.

The reason behind the poor service on the Milton line isn't due to a lack of ridership. Prior to COVID it was one of the busiest lines on the GO network. The reason is because passengers along the line are hostages to Canadian Pacific, who owns the corridor, and because no one appears to be interested enough in seriously funding the addition of more tracks. If 30,000 daily riders weren't enough to tilt the needle, why would bruteforcing more condos along the corridor do it?

 

[drum118]

Because the reason its taken so long to get ANY higher order transit in this city is that the thinking at the provincial level is that there isn't enough ridership/density that necessitates investment in transit in this city.

Same reason why it took so long to get an LRT, and same reason why we're getting a BRT on Dundas instead of an LRT.

It's a chicken and egg problem, should the transit come first then the density, or the other way around?

I've read that in the early days of NYC's development they built subways going into (what was at the time) empty fields, but I guess we do things differently here now.

Cities built transit first starting with Toronto in 1870's to encourage growth for various areas of the new expropriate lands or areas that needed growth. Mississauga and the old Township that formed Mississauga did no do that as it was built for cars.

Waterfront Toronto took the approach for redevelopment of the waterfront calling for high order of Transit first, but both TTC and the City fail on that. Oakville has taken the step for new development by placing bus stops on the plan and trying to get buses into those new area sooner than later.

If real planning took place to cut down on the need to own a car in a city, transit and high order for it and service must come first from my point of view. Hurontario LRT is filling that bill now regardless it been delay. As for Dundas, you have two levels calling the shots for it that Mississauga will be the worse off seeing BRT east of Hurontario than LRT, but ML is calling the shots like the Transitway been call for by GO Transit in the beginning. The Transitway is still a mix bag for Mississauga and totally missing on both ends outside of Mississauga.

To put in any high order of transit in Mississauga, the city needs to think outside the box for single and four story housing as well stop putting high density in only for a few locations. The city is almost out of land and the only place you can put more resident is going tall using 200/hectare not the current 20-40/hectare. Most of all, it need to bulldoze various areas to create a true gride system for everyone regardless which neighborhood it is in.

Now back to the Hurontario issues.

 

[SR95]

But what you're advocating for is building new developments in what are effectively transit deserts, the reverse of what happened in NYC.

The reason behind the poor service on the Milton line isn't due to a lack of ridership. Prior to COVID it was one of the busiest lines on the GO network. The reason is because passengers along the line are hostages to Canadian Pacific, who owns the corridor, and because no one appears to be interested enough in seriously funding the addition of more tracks. If 30,000 daily riders weren't enough to tilt the needle, why would bruteforcing more condos along the corridor do it?

You're misreading my point. I'm also not disagreeing with the fact that in an ideal world, transit would be there first & then density would follow - "build it & they will come."

What I'm saying is that it looks like people who call the shots in this province prioritize investment into transit based on where the greatest need / ridership is.

More development near the Milton corridor, ahead of 2WAD, would give the City a better position to argue from due to latent demand from said development. Again, I'm not saying this is how I would do it, I'm just saying given how it *appears* as though the Province prioritizes where money is spent, it would given them more reason to do so.

Additionally, this density doesn't need to come all at once, that's why I mentioned Streetsville as it's already a pretty complete, mixed use community, and fairly walkable in nature. It's not out of the realm of possibility to suggest people living there wouldn't need to drive every time they left their house.

Do you think Hurontario would've ever been built if it.wasn't the densest corridor in Mississauga, with the bus ridership numbers to back it up?

 

[JJTheJetPln]

More development near the Milton corridor, ahead of 2WAD, would give the City a better position to argue from due to latent demand from said development.

This is precisely how the province is thinking because unfortunately the government is not proactive. They're reactive because they don't anticipate the population to reach a point where they'd need to get into talks with CP to expand the Milton Line. That, and the money to do so would have to come from other avenues if the area they're attempting to build out to may not be able to foot much if any of the cost at all at present time.

We're basically asking to increase revenue service prices on the corridor that the train services in a bid to improve the duration of the trains and/or build out a separate track for 2WAD service. That may never materialize until it's too late and the Milton Line can't cope with the increase.

Unfortunately, it seems to be this way with many things, not just transit - But that's neither here nor there.

In scope of the HuLRT, I'm crossing my fingers and hoping they deal with the delays in a timely manner, but most of my hope is lost due to ML keeping their lips sealed.

 

[sixrings]

You're misreading my point. I'm also not disagreeing with the fact that in an ideal world, transit would be there first & then density would follow - "build it & they will come."

What I'm saying is that it looks like people who call the shots in this province prioritize investment into transit based on where the greatest need / ridership is.

More development near the Milton corridor, ahead of 2WAD, would give the City a better position to argue from due to latent demand from said development. Again, I'm not saying this is how I would do it, I'm just saying given how it *appears* as though the Province prioritizes where money is spent, it would given them more reason to do so.

Additionally, this density doesn't need to come all at once, that's why I mentioned Streetsville as it's already a pretty complete, mixed use community, and fairly walkable in nature. It's not out of the realm of possibility to suggest people living there wouldn't need to drive every time they left their house.

Do you think Hurontario would've ever been built if it.wasn't the densest corridor in Mississauga, with the bus ridership numbers to back it up?

Correction. It’s based on who complains the most. So if you keep putting people a line the Milton line and those people complain enough then something will be built as a vote buying project.

 

[Dan416]

I strongly disagree with the city not increasing density at the Milton line stations. Of course we don't have 2WAD service. But a lot of people (like me) still work regular work hours, and the Milton line is perfectly adequate for most of those types of trips. If I stay late, I can still take a GO bus as late as 2:20 am and it takes me practically to my door versus the train where I need to walk home from the GO station. So despite its faults, they should densify all the stations. It's good enough for what it does. Although I wish there was service every 15 minutes for the part of the day that it does cover.

 

[SR95]

Correction. It’s based on who complains the most. So if you keep putting people a line the Milton line and those people complain enough then something will be built as a vote buying project.

I know you're being at least partly facetious but the complaining does seem like it gets a great amount of things done at least at the municipal level, I dont imagine its much different at the provincial level.

Also just one final thought on this, but as an additional example: any time anyone brings up extending Line 2 into Mississauga, all I hear is that there isn't enough density/people/ridership to justify it. Furthermore, in every one of those business case documents I've seen that are historically used to plan rapid transit lines, the province always talks about projected/potential ridership as a metric to justify a new line. I know it's not the only metric used to make those decisions, but it's pretty clear the decision makers value existing, dense corridors as places where they want to invest money.

 

[drum118]

Aug 26
All my photos for July and part of Aug 3 now on line

Had to catch Brampton 511 today and left before I was to to take a look at a few things since I was to do it the first weekend in Sept at this time. Basely no change from my last visited a few weeks ago except for a few things.

Nothing taking place in Brampton and installed the utilities for the north-west corner of Ray Lawson. No pouring of the curb work that was stake the last time I saw it.

Couldn't get close to the 407 bridge but looks like they are doing the base work on both sides of it to get ready for the curb work. All of the area from the 407 Bus terminal to the 407 on ramp has been prepared for the curb to be pour as well the sidewalk with police on site. Looks like the last section of the guideway east barrier wall has been poured with the rest exposed.

Topflight may open in October with no one on site an a new lager main diamond in place. The other one I saw a few weeks ago is still on the side of the road.

The east outbound rail is being installed and wrap and about 3.4 of the way to the eastbound guideway.

The northside of Kingsway intersection is now closed to pedestrians as they are about to tear up the concrete encasing the rail as it is off by a few mm, The words being done cheap could be heard. Hard to say if the work is for a small section or will be for the full intersection once traffic is using the northbound lanes in Oct or Nov.

A small crew of BOTT personal digging up a small trench area in the northbound lane south of Matheson to install a large stack of duct bank next to the guideway retaining wall. This this an after thought or an oops??

Another small BOTT crew doing work from Kingsbridge to the 403 on ramp for the southbound area.

A construction crew along with white hats looking at the area where the guideway leaves Hurontario and connect to the elevated ramp.

 

[drum118]

Sept 10
@Dan416 you need to start looking at the guideway on your way to/from the GO station as rail is being place in the guideway between Fairview and CP at this time. I noticed last week a boom truck was doing something in that area and was to far away to see what was going on nor the time to have a look. Pasted it on Friday on the bus and saw nothing.

Had to go to Dundas on Monday and kill a few things like shooting some of the Alba Crane removal as well seeing what the boom truck doing.

PNR Rail Network crew were off loading rail for both tracks with the boom truck between Fairview and CP as well for Fairview intersection. No idea if it is for this area only or going to place rails in the rest of the guideway on both sides. If so, what area will see rail next. The next step for the rail is to splice them together so they can be lay on the ties once they are installed.

Duct work has taken pace in the centre area north of the CP bridge with a big hole being dug by the bridge. Two rebar frame to support the overhead have been placed on both side of the bridge. Crew forming an area north of the station that has seen rebar framing.

Dundas is still a mess with the BIA and the ward councilor still concern it will have an effect later this month for the Taste of Cooksville, but been told by ML that what every work still not done will see the area reduced in size with protection. The crew ran in to a few surprises for the fibers lines and material had to be order to deal with the issue.

ML will be appearing before council in November to provide an update on the line and what will be happen for the loop expansion. No dates or time frame will be provided to council for both projects just like ML has been doing for Line 5 and Line 6. Still saying late 2027 to 2028 for the opening of the line subject to a few things with nothing in 2026.

I notice on Sept 1 that no work has taken place on Port Credit station since I last saw it. All the photos for August are on line and this shots are from Sept 1

 

[Dan416]

Sept 10
@Dan416 you need to start looking at the guideway on your way to/from the GO station as rail is being place in the guideway between Fairview and CP at this time. I noticed last week a boom truck was doing something in that area and was to far away to see what was going on nor the time to have a look. Pasted it on Friday on the bus and saw nothing.

I didn't notice any track being put down yesterday, though I saw some digging going on near the CP bridge. I'll take a look when I next go into the office on Friday. Hopefully there's some good progress by then!

 

[drum118]

I didn't notice any track being put down yesterday, though I saw some digging going on near the CP bridge. I'll take a look when I next go into the office on Friday. Hopefully there's some good progress by then!

The rail is next to the road curb in the guideway for both tracks and you can see it at Fairview looking north, Don't expect to see much process other than placing rail at this time. I guess the rail crew for Topflight did not perform well to do the guideway work or were only hired to to that work only.

 

[JJTheJetPln]

Glad to see some updates for Mississauga. I don't have much to really provide an update for in Brampton other than the sections that are on the northbound side have been paved over with asphalt for quite some time now. Depending on how busy my schedule is, and depending on the weather conditions, I'm hoping I'll be able to get some more photos before it gets cold.

 

[drum118]

Sept 11
@Dan416 you will enjoy your walk to the GO station and maybe more on your way home as to what is taking place in the guideway be tween Central Pkwy and CP bridge.

Had an appointment in Port Credit and Another one at Long Branch today and decided to catch the bus at Central Pkwy after I had a quick look at the guideway to see if anything new has taken place since I saw it on Monday.

Boy!!!.....what a change in those few days not only the guideway, but parts of the corridor to Port Credit. The northbound track guideway is not only completely mesh but haft of the mesh has ties sitting on it starting at Central Pkwy going south with more ties being install. It maybe all done by now or early on Friday. Love the 3 man crew making sure the ties where space and align using a plywood jig that had 3 tie cutout at the bottom with handle opening at the top. If ties did not line up with the jig, it was kick to see if fit the jig and if not the 3rd person use a crowbar to move the tie in to position as well making sure they were all in alignment, Never saw this on the tracks that are in place now.

Southbound track will be next to be done. This means the splicing of the rail will happen once all the ties are in position as well level. I noticed a 2 man crew inspecting the guideway between Central Pkwy and Elm.

Rail laying against the road curb south of Fairview in the guideway to about haft way to the bridge as there is two stock pile of rail sitting there.

That hole at the bridge is for rebar to support the OS pole.

Rebar crew working on the Queensway Stop.

Hydro has finally started to deal with the 4 poles at the North Service Rd by installing a new just north of the first one as well a few new new ones in the south-west corner and away from Hurontario.

The south-east corner for the South Service Rd has its new curb poured for it and now waiting paving of the new turning lane as well the lane to the QEW. We may see the northbound traffic shifted to the new road later this month or in October along with adjustments to the QEW ramp and the new sidewalk.

Rebar frames have been place in holes dug by the vacuum truck for the OS pole supports on both sides of Englewood with a few more holes to be done.

One man crew as far as I saw was installing insulation on the steelwork for the south entrance.

Was told today that U training wall across from the station is to house a substation for the station as I expected. Otherwise, everything is still the same as ir was months ago.

Will try to find time next week to have a look at the rest of the corridor to see if anything has change since my last trip to Topflight but will not be doing Brampton

With the RFP out for the new transit terminal for Sq One, it shows the LRT station and raise a question for it. We know the line will continue west along Rathburn but will Station Gate guideway be built at the same time as the station??

 

[Dan416]

So they really have laid down some tracks today between Fairview and Central Pkwy: