[kEiThZ]

Absolutely. Local transit is certainly important but with a proper long-haul grid, local transit can be handled relatively effectively by buses. The problems we have with local transit are mostly due to having an inadequate grid, forcing local routes to cover long distances.

Exactly. But it's even more messed up than that. What's our solution for long bus rides arising from the lack of an adequate long-haul network?

Long tram rides! Yes!

And the sales pitch was that riders would save 10-15 mins off their existing 90-120 min commutes. How ambitious.

Fixing/Upgrading the GO train network and integrating fares and service would do more for 416 residents than Transfer City would have....particularly given the fact that most of the riders of those LRT lines were bound for the subway network and the city's core anyway.

 

[kEiThZ]

Your grossly exaggerating here. And none were more than $1-billion, except perhaps for the SRT extension.

And now we've got a $12-billion project instead ... which goes no closer to Malvern that the Scarborough Centre?

Sheppard approached a billion by the end and it wouldn't even touch Dean Park. The SRT was a billion and barely touched the edge of Malvern forcing a major re-routing of bus routes and actually worsening travel for anybody who was travelling inside northern Scarborough. I am willing to bet that Morningside would easily have been a billion given the bridge needed, the diversion into UTSC, etc.

I'm not saying the mammoth Scarborough-Eglinton line is infinitely better. But let's not pretend that an SRT that ends at Progress (a mere 7-8 min bus ride from McCowan) was some kind of great panacea for Malvern. At least it saves a transfer for a lot of people. In reality, a GO stop in Malvern getting riders to Summerhill would cut commute times in half. Heck, peak ridership along the Transfer City corridors would plummet if something like this was in place. Where do you think the bulk of those Morningside, Neilson, and Sheppard East bus riders are heading? I say build this first, and then we'll truly be able to tell how much local demand is there along those corridors and whether it's worth billions in LRT investment. Building the LRT network first is just bass ackwards.

 

[nfitz]

Your gross exaggerations were that only one line even saved any travel time, and it was minor. Have you seen the traffic trying to cross the 401 to get to Scarborough Centre?

 

[gweed123]

Also, beyond that, an agency that control both the subway network and the GO rail network would probably focus on the long and medium-haul issues facing this city and region. This frees up the cities to deal with local transit and keeps various local issues (funding for example) from impacting the whole regional network. No silly tantrums about closing down a stubway, just because a mayor didn't get provincial funding, would be allowed.

But then you have the issue with the fact that the profit from the TTC subway heavily subsidizes a lot of the bus routes. You would need to work out a revenue transfer deal with the local transit agencies so that they could still operate effectively, even without their biggest revenue generating lines.

Personally, I really do see LRT in a different league from subways and heavy rail. Transit City was really an upgrade to the bus routes on those corridors. It's biggest benefit (speed) came from increased stop spacing and a dedicated lane. Not from the technology being used per se (since most of TC wasn't grade separated). In any event, I see the management of LRT lines (at least the ones at-grade) as not all that removed in complication from the existing streetcar lines. So the city would be fully able to build, manage and even fund the LRT network by itself.

I agree to a certain extent. I don't think the distinction should be made based on technology, it should be made based on regional importance. The Eglinton LRT is an important regional line. The Finch West LRT isn't, it's a line for Toronto.

Heck, putting the subway and Go networks under one roof might actually promote regional coherence for once. Something even Metrolinx basically sucks at, at the moment. It's a crazy idea I know.

I do agree with that. Metrolinx at this point is a funding authority, not a transit authority. The Big Move is really just a collection of local transit plans, with a few regional ideas thrown in.

 

[ssiguy2]

GO transit expansion does squat for Torontonians themselves until there is some form of discount of fares like Translink where the amount spent to get to the station {whether that 1,2, or3 zones} is deducted 100% off the price of the commuter rail fare and is valid on the other end.

 

[nfitz]

GO transit expansion does squat for Torontonians themselves until there is some form of discount of fares like Translink where the amount spent to get to the station {whether that 1,2, or3 zones} is deducted 100% off the price of the commuter rail fare and is valid on the other end.

Not true. I'm a Torontonian, and I find the increased service very useful. I really don't care about the fare ... it's still cheaper than parking.

 

[gweed123]

GO transit expansion does squat for Torontonians themselves until there is some form of discount of fares like Translink where the amount spent to get to the station {whether that 1,2, or3 zones} is deducted 100% off the price of the commuter rail fare and is valid on the other end.

That's a Presto and fare integration issue. That has nothing to do with the infrastructure itself. Those changes can happen almost overnight. It takes almost a decade to build infrastructure. Should we not plan for infrastructure now because the fare structure isn't in place now? In the many years that it takes to actually build it, I'm pretty sure they can work out a fare deal.

That's like saying "well I'm in the process of switching banks, so I shouldn't start looking at cars I want to buy 6 months from now".

 

[kEiThZ]

Your gross exaggerations were that only one line even saved any travel time, and it was minor. Have you seen the traffic trying to cross the 401 to get to Scarborough Centre?

Yes. I know the traffic in the area. But can you explain how an SRT ending at Progress actually helps? Maybe if you ride the Progress bus. But what does it do for you if you're riding McCowan North (the busiest bus route from STC...on the busiest stretch of traffic into STC), or the Nugget bus?

That line was useless unless it actually terminated at Malvern Town Centre (Centennial college students notwithstanding).

 

[nfitz]

Yes. I know the traffic in the area. But can you explain how an SRT ending at Progress actually helps?

Because the terminal (temporarily) would be near Progress and Sheppherd. This would alleviate all the congested travel over the 401 to Scarborough Centre - almost 4 kilometres away. It would be a huge time-savings. Also this was only Phase 1. In Phase 2, it would then be extended to Malvern Town Centre

That line was useless unless it actually terminated at Malvern Town Centre

Which was the plan.

 

[kEiThZ]

But then you have the issue with the fact that the profit from the TTC subway heavily subsidizes a lot of the bus routes. You would need to work out a revenue transfer deal with the local transit agencies so that they could still operate effectively, even without their biggest revenue generating lines.

I get this. But isn't this kind of a problem in and of itself. Our biggest challenge is our stunted subway network. A profitable subway network would have the resources to pursue expansion.

Instead, we use the subway network to prop up bus services (and/or keep fares lower) because that's what's politically popular. Let's face it, no politician is going to raise fares or cut local bus service today to help build up resources to build a subway line 10 years from now. Eventually, this politically expedient practice manifests itself into a persistent belief that we don't have the resources to expand the subway/heavy rail network and therefore must settle for at-grade, partially-segregated LRT.

So Torontonians will have to pay a bit more for the buses. Small price to pay to empower our rail networks with the independence and resources to grow. That and we might actually get a fare by distance scheme in the process....

 

[kEiThZ]

Because the terminal (temporarily) would be near Progress and Sheppherd. This would alleviate all the congested travel over the 401 to Scarborough Centre - almost 4 kilometres away.

Okay. If you're talking about traffic along McCowan into STC, hardly any of that originates from Malvern. Heck, hardly any of that is 416 residents.

The traffic along Progress (the road which most Malvernites take) is bearable during rush hour).

A terminal at Progress and Sheppard does nothing at all for the crazy amount of traffic along Markham and McCowan. I will bet money on that. And it really isn't needed to relieve traffic on Progress. So I'm still confused how you think a terminal that's not close to any of the actually congested corridors will provide relief.

It would be a huge time-savings.

Huge is relative. But yes there would have been lots of time savings till STC. 8-10 mins I believe? Saving the transfer at Kennedy though actually comes close to saving half that amount. Anybody bound for downtown will now simply stay on the Crosstown rather than disembark at Kennedy. And now that the whole thing is a subway....

Overall, guess what would save more time than all this? A GO Crosstown.

Also this was only Phase 1. In Phase 2, it would then be extended to Malvern Town Centre.

I remember being in elementary school when they talked about extending the SRT to Malvern. Every Scarborough resident knows not to trust transit promises until there's trains pulling into a station.

In the 20 years that would have passed between phase 1 and phase 2, Malvern would have been blessed with messed up bus network to an improperly placed terminus.

 

[nfitz]

Every Scarborough resident knows not to trust transit promises until there's trains pulling into a station.

Yes - they will likely be pissed during the 2014 election, when they would have already had the LRT, but still have no sign of a subway.

 

[smallspy]

Overall, guess what would save more time than all this? A GO Crosstown.

But how much of that savings would be lost by having to wait multiple southbound subway trains?

And more importantly, how are you going to try and shoehorn all those additional people onto a crowded subway line?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[kEiThZ]

But how much of that savings would be lost by having to wait multiple southbound subway trains?

And more importantly, how are you going to try and shoehorn all those additional people onto a crowded subway line?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Those people would be getting on at Bloor anyway (via the Bloor-Danforth line). Now they are getting on at Summerhill. Hardly that much of a difference. In the long run, a DRL extending up Don Mills will be needed to provide relief to Yonge.

However, if we're going to spend billions on LRTs for the outer 416, I'm just suggesting there's a lot more bang for the buck in putting that into the GO network.

 

[gweed123]

Those people would be getting on at Bloor anyway (via the Bloor-Danforth line). Now they are getting on at Summerhill. Hardly that much of a difference. In the long run, a DRL extending up Don Mills will be needed to provide relief to Yonge.

However, if we're going to spend billions on LRTs for the outer 416, I'm just suggesting there's a lot more bang for the buck in putting that into the GO network.

There would also be a station at Dupont most likely, so they would have access to the Spadina subway as well. Not to mention, the Crosstown would probably be one of the later lines to go in. I would imagine that the Richmond Hill line would be further up the priority list, so people could change trains at Don Mills if they wanted to go to Union.