Steve X
Senior Member
I don't know if it's even worth going to an open house once you been to one of them. They give out the same info and tweak the presentation by 5 slides.
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salsa
Senior Member
Why oh why are there so many public meetings scheduled on the same couple of days next week? I would like to attend, but now I'm forced to choose between that and the Lakeshore East Corridor Expansion (also by Metrolinx) or Waterfront Transit Reset. The day before that it's the same problem: Waterfront Transit, Lakeshore Corridor, and Reimagining Yonge Street all at the same time. I'm almost certain there are even more events on those days which I'm unable to recall at the moment.
Also, just like last time, the city decided to Schedule their SmartTrack West meeting on a Saturday, early in the morning, at a location where it takes a lot of time to get to by transit. Not cool.
mdrejhon
Senior Member
I went to Kitchener-Waterloo and took pictures of ION LRT.
It's a LOT more like Crosstown than you think...
* Eglinton Crosstown is an LRT
* Eglinton Crosstown has surface sections.
* Kitchener-Waterloo use the same vehicles as Eglinton Crosstown LRT.
* ION LRT also has long surface sections without crossings, same as TTC Subway
* Traffic separated. This is not slow TTC streetcar.
* ION LRT support chaining into trains (2-vehicle consists, platforms are long enough)
* Level boarding subway-style
* All-doors open subway-style, 100% wheelchair accessible. Platforms are about double-curb-height.
* No automatic wheelchair ramps needed like TTC new streetcars need them!
* ION planned LRT speed is similar to TTC downtown subway thanks to automatic green lights for LRT.
Also, in other cities when I board a modern "wheel-on-wheel-off" LRT whose all doors open flush to platform (unlike any TTC streetcar routes) -- and zooms through good automatic green lights at intersections -- it feels like a 75% subway, 25% bus -- even though it goes through surface intersections. It definitely DOES NOT feel like a TTC streetcar experience. It feels faster and more subwaylike than even Spadina TTC which is often left waiting at red lights and still needs wheelchair ramps. Modern surface LRT stop design much more subway-feel with a fleet of simultaneous doors opening and fully-wheel-on accessible. Some LRT stops for ION (even ones on street) often look closely like TTC's surface subway stops!
Now imagine a 2-LRT consist instead with 100% perfect level boarding all-doors-automatic open. Real LRT's with good transit-priority green-light systems often only have to stop when it's at an LRT stop. Zoom, stop, all doors open, perfect level, all doors close, zoom to next stop. Even through intersections.
The "subway-feel" experience also includes the ability to stand while reading a newspaper, tablet, or texting/surfing on smartphone, you can stand on a modern smooth-running LRT without grabbing a pole, much like on the TTC subway. From Olden Days of reading newspaper to today's kids reading smartphones; you can see it happening at lot more often on the TTC subway or Spadina Streetcar (traffic separated, even if platforms aren't subway-style like for ION LRT) than on TTC buses. It is a much more comfortable ride for standees, at peak, especially older people who lose balance on a bus as it shifts around and accelerates/stops more unpredictably. The "BUS INSTEAD OF LRT" supporters needs to understand this, as well. Buses are important too; and LRT stops amplifies the ridership of nearby/connecting buses.
Of course, specific sections will be a little more slower -- turns in ION LRT especially nearer downtown -- will slow things down, but Finch West LRT, Crosstown LRT and Hamilton LRT are fairly straight-arrow LRTs -- and simplifies green-light transit-priority systems which doesn't work very well on TTC as in properly implemented, well-functioning LRT traffic priority systems. The fact that Eglinton Crosstown LRT has an underground section, definitely makes it feel MORE like a subway (of underground parlance).
TL;DR: It is my experience that properly implemented modern surface sections of LRT's actually "feel" more like TTC subway rather than TTC streetcars. (performancewise, speed, boarding experience, dedicated lanes, no stopping except at stops thanks to good automatic green lights & farside platforms, etc) On some good surface LRT routes on roads, the only thing that doesn't feel subway-like is that it isn't underground.
Monarch Butterfly
Superstar
I have scheduling conflicts as well. Have to look online after the meetings and give comments afterwards.
someMidTowner
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Hopkins123
Senior Member
Once the tunneled section section is completed this summer, how long will it take to build the stations, lay tracks? Does it really have to take another three years til its operational?
BurlOak
Senior Member
No it doesn't take another. 3 years to become operational. 5 years is probably more realistic. I think the schedule was 2011, and TTC thought it was too optimistic.
Steve X
Senior Member
I was describing the construction work behind the project. I totally agree that the ION would feel like more riding a subway. In fact it is very comparable to the Calgary C-Trains which operates closer to a subway in the suburbs reaching 80 km/h. Except that the C-Trains have a intensively slow downtown section. The ION will suffer from this too unlike the Crosstown or Ottawa's Confederation Line. It would be faster than a streetcar but definitely no where near subway speed. We'll see how transit priority works.
LRVs vs subway cars: The LRT will still feel rougher than a subway. If anyone has an experience of the 501 on the Queensway ROW, they'll know it feels nothing like a subway. The TTC streetcars are rougher than the C-Trains, that's for sure. It feels like the car is swing back and forth. The use of low floor cars on newly built tracks would feel much better than Queensway but very likely not the subway. The significantly lighter and low floor cars have a disadvantage here.
The alignment: Those who rode the Calgary C-Trains would know that the network is mostly built on pedestrian unfriendly areas. The south line for example is built beside a railway corridor. This is true for portions of the ION. The area feels sketchy and isolated at night. It doesn't really attract people to go there and use the LRTs when it's in the middle of no where. It's worst when each station has a huge parking lot than encourages driving to the station. It doesn't feel urban at all. The crosstown is on a busy street which gives that a big plus over the ION, the C-Trains and Ottawa's LRT. Yes it's easier to build a faster line without tunneling and a decade of construction but you don't get the same environment as a subway. I feel much safer to use the Crosstown than ION.
Palma
Senior Member
thats exactly what I have been thinking
mdrejhon
Senior Member
All good and fair points:
The new LRVs run smoother than old streetcars, and they are installing tracks to tighter specs than the TTC tracks (including St. Clair).
Concrete ties in railroad ROWs give a super smooth ride:
And complete rubber wrap (1/2 - 3/4") around the rails in the embedded sections.
Rubber covers left, right, and bottom (thicker on the outer side) so no contact between rail and concrete. It softens the ride and quiets ambient noise.
For embedded, from what I saw in Kitchener-Waterloo, the precision and tolerances look much tighter than St. Clair. It will easily run much smoother than the Queensway ROW for most of the route.
Based on my experience with similar LRT in other cities, it probably will run a bit rougher than TTC new trains in the well-maintained underground sections (especially if debris exists), but smoother than the roughest parts of the TTC subway network, especially surface routes.
The precision they are doing in Kitchener-Waterloo is much better than I expected.
So does some of TTC's weather-exposed surface sections, especially with older trains.
The new LRVs run smoother than old streetcars, and they are installing tracks to tighter specs than the TTC tracks (including St. Clair).
Concrete ties in railroad ROWs give a super smooth ride:
And complete rubber wrap (1/2 - 3/4") around the rails in the embedded sections.
Rubber covers left, right, and bottom (thicker on the outer side) so no contact between rail and concrete. It softens the ride and quiets ambient noise.
For embedded, from what I saw in Kitchener-Waterloo, the precision and tolerances look much tighter than St. Clair. It will easily run much smoother than the Queensway ROW for most of the route.
Based on my experience with similar LRT in other cities, it probably will run a bit rougher than TTC new trains in the well-maintained underground sections (especially if debris exists), but smoother than the roughest parts of the TTC subway network, especially surface routes.
The precision they are doing in Kitchener-Waterloo is much better than I expected.
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Steve X
Senior Member
I agree that most LRTs will run better than the Queensway ROW. Those tracks aren't that well built plus the old cars are on their last legs. The only time I have ridden low floor cars in a ROW was in Berlin. Quality is decent there. TTC's embedded tracks are better since they are also rubber isolated.
The Calgary C-Trains are high floor so the cars would absorb some of the vibration. Can't believe the ION would be the first Canadian low floor LRT line (the Vancouver Olympics line doesn't count). Follow by Ottawa, Edmonton, Eglinton and then Finch West. Mississauga and maybe Hamilton after that. I wonder where is Edmonton's cars going to be built.
The Calgary C-Trains are high floor so the cars would absorb some of the vibration. Can't believe the ION would be the first Canadian low floor LRT line (the Vancouver Olympics line doesn't count). Follow by Ottawa, Edmonton, Eglinton and then Finch West. Mississauga and maybe Hamilton after that. I wonder where is Edmonton's cars going to be built.
Megaton327
Senior Member
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitch...2018-due-to-bombardier-train-delays-1.3597328
Flexity Freedom LRVs delayed for Waterloo's ION LRT, and have delayed its opening from late 2017 to early 2018. Doesn't bode well for Eglinton et al. So much for all those saying the Outlook Streetcar problems won't affect Freedom LRVs...
Flexity Freedom LRVs delayed for Waterloo's ION LRT, and have delayed its opening from late 2017 to early 2018. Doesn't bode well for Eglinton et al. So much for all those saying the Outlook Streetcar problems won't affect Freedom LRVs...
DonValleyRainbow
Senior Member
I almost clicked 'Like', as in I like that you were able to post this info to the thread, but it feels so wrong because I do not like what's going on here at all.
This is super bad news for Bombardier. Their production problems are spreading other transit vehicle orders. Doesn't give other potential customers much confidence, and Bombardier will likely lose some future bids because of this.
Voltz
Senior Member
If there are already delays before production starts, imagine how bad it will get after they actually building the things.
Steve X
Senior Member
I don't know why it would like them 3 months to get a vehicle into service if it does arrive in Oct 2017. Probably a good idea to give them more time cause BBD can't deliver.