[reaperexpress]

I believe we were talking about pedestrian signals.

Yes. I said "I've certainly seen traffic lights in Toronto that go to flashing countdown in a lot less than 7 seconds!"

You have made that claim.

I've only seen it once ... perhaps there was a fault. Which happens. I've tried to cross a road on a white pedestrian signal before, dodged a car, and realised it managed to show green in both directions. I thought that was impossible too ... and yes, I reported it straight away to 311.

Yes. Now I'm telling you you about the duration of the countdown.

I'm just providing further details of what I once observed; I was surprised by both the quick procession to flashing, and the length of the flashing. At the time I'd assumed that they jumped quickly to the flashing because it was such a huge amount of time that they needed to do it flashing, having to walk cross 8 lane plus a median. Now I'm wondering if it there was a fault.

Okay cool, I understand now. You are describing an alleged malfunction you saw one time at one intersection years ago that is completely irrelevant to this discussion about the effectiveness of TSP.

Like you said, showing greens in opposite directions is also supposed to be impossible. There are two completely separate computers in the cabinet, and the second computer (the MMU / Conflict Monitor) is solely there to look at the outputs from the controller to make sure it isn't violating parameters like the minimum durations (e.g. minimum Walk), or showing conflicting directions at the same time. If the MMU detects any violation, it shuts down the controller and the intersection starts flashing red in all directions. For the Walk to be less than the minimum Walk, not only does the controller need to be horribly misprogrammed, but the conflict monitor needs to have been incorrectly programmed as well.

 

[nfitz]

Okay cool, I understand now. You are describing an alleged malfunction you saw one time at one intersection years ago that is completely irrelevant to this discussion about the effectiveness of TSP.

No. You don't understand.

I assumed it was standard. Now that we've discussed more, I'm years later wondering if it was a fault.

It is thought completely irrelevant to TPS - other than they need to set the timings to allow for such crossing times. There's nothing about the crossing time that would stop TPS; I think that's a theory one of us transit geeks came up with.

 

[micheal_can]

Why is every single person who is part of a neighbourhood/"concerned" residents association always such a f***ing moron?

I think it is a requirement to join those associations.
Most people seem to be NIMbY. I am YIMBY. Not much I would never have welcomed anywhere I lived.

 

[txlseries4]

Yes. Not sure why (i.e. for whom) that crosswalk is even there.

There's a bus stop at the NW corner for the 51 Leslie so at least those people

 

[reaperexpress]

No. You don't understand.

I assumed it was standard. Now that we've discussed more, I'm years later wondering if it was a fault.

Ah okay got it.

It is thought completely irrelevant to TPS - other than they need to set the timings to allow for such crossing times. There's nothing about the crossing time that would stop TPS; I think that's a theory one of us transit geeks came up with.

If the crossing time is extremely long, it will severely limit your ability to give a green light to transit. Once a pedestrian phase starts, the minimum pedestrian duration must be served. If the system detects a streetcar approaching just after it started a Walk light across a wide road, that streetcar is just SOL. There's nothing any TSP system can do to give the streetcar a green light in time. That's why most places with good TSP divide up pedestrian crossings into many short stages - each one only takes about 10 seconds to clear, rather than 40.

 

[Bojaxs]

or cut the crossing up into multiple stages (like the Netherlands and France do).

And this goes to the point I've been trying to make earlier. The lack of two phase crossings built into Line 6 & 5 will mean strong TSP on either line may not be possible.

I don't think Line 6 has any. Line 5 has a few at certain intersections.

 

[nfitz]

If the crossing time is extremely long, it will severely limit your ability to give a green light to transit. Once a pedestrian phase starts, the minimum pedestrian duration must be served. If the system detects a streetcar approaching just after it started a Walk light across a wide road, that streetcar is just SOL.

If the system has less than a minute warning that a train on Finch or Eglinton will be approaching, it is poorly designed. Just hold the upcoming green open for an extra couple of minutes - if necessary extend the following green in the other direction to clear traffic that backed up.

And this goes to the point I've been trying to make earlier. The lack of two phase crossings built into Line 6 & 5 will mean strong TSP on either line may not be possible.

I don't see two-phase crossings in Waterloo on streets like Northfield which do have TPS and equally wide, if not wider, streets.

 

[zang]

Why is every single person who is part of a neighbourhood/"concerned" residents association always such a f***ing moron?

“It would change the character of the neighbourhood!”/“mAh PrOpeRTy vALue!”

NIMBYism almost always comes down to racism or greed.

 

[crs1026]

Why is every single person who is part of a neighbourhood/"concerned" residents association always such a f***ing moron?

They aren't. (the old Northern Pikes lyric......not pretty, just looks that way).

There is tremendous variability, and residents' associations seem to hibernate and then only re-emerge when issues arise. They can be tremendously reactive - making loud, irrational noise is often their most effective advocacy tool. Assembling a rabble works where civil, reasoned advocacy and well thought out lettersbto the editor may not.

Personally, I can't imagine the City working better without them, because no bureaucracy is nimble enough to redirect its plans, or question its own wisdom, once it has landed on a path forward. We should be grateful for what advocacy has done for us. Residents' associations get it wrong plenty of times, but it's a step back, two steps forward mixture. Democracy is messy.

- Paul

 

[ThenWhat]

Yes. Not sure why (i.e. for whom) that crosswalk is even there.

There's a bus stop at the NW corner for the 51 Leslie so at least those people

View attachment 707584

Right, but why would the people taking the bus want to cross the road there? To go to/from the park they don't have to cross any street. To go to/from the LRT stop, they have the other crosswalk. Ditto if they really want to take the stairs down to the parking lot, instead of going under the bridge.

 

[81-717]

It still functions fine, as designed. It's not like the bulbs are going out.

You see the same equipment in systems bigger than Toronto. I'm not sure what the big deal is here.

"Aged poorly" in the sense that it's seen as "vintage" and "dated" at this point already (as recently as 2 years ago, some people thought that even the T1s still don't seem that way). Equipment can be outdated and still function just fine (see the H4s for example).

 

[reaperexpress]

If the system has less than a minute warning that a train on Finch or Eglinton will be approaching, it is poorly designed. Just hold the upcoming green open for an extra couple of minutes - if necessary extend the following green in the other direction to clear traffic that backed up.

Surely you can see the issue with holding the green for an extra couple minutes at an intersection with an LRV every 1.5 minutes.

Again, this is why trams in the Netherlands (and most other countries with good trams) divide up pedestrian crossings into small stages (like the east crossing at this intersection, but with the stages actually operating independently). It increases the signal's ability to truncate previous phases and thereby avoids the need to hold greens for such a long time. The Netherlands commonly uses a maximum green extension of 20 seconds, which is actually a lot less than Toronto's max of 30, yet if you've ever ridden a tram in the Netherlands you'll know that their TSP systems work much better. Part of that is precisely because they don't have to detect trams so far in advance, and the arrival time estimate is therefore more accurate.

I don't see two-phase crossings in Waterloo on streets like Northfield which do have TPS and equally wide, if not wider, streets.

No, like I said several times already, Waterloo's system detects trams several minutes in advance and gradually adjust the signals to create a green wave lining up with the tram's approximate estimated arrival time. Then the local TSP actions don't have to be as drastic since the signal is already approximately in the right part of the cycle when the tram approaches.

This works great on a line such as Waterloo's where trams run every 10 minutes (every 5 minutes total for the two directions). But when you have an LRV every 1.5 minutes, I think you can see how it's not possible to spend several minutes preparing for each tram's arrival.

And by the way, it's TSP, not TPS. TPS stands for Toronto Police Service.

 

[micheal_can]

Surely you can see the issue with holding the green for an extra couple minutes at an intersection with an LRV every 1.5 minutes.

The technology out there can allow a "green wave" for drivers. Why can't a green wave be set up for the LRVs?

 

[Voltz]

why underground? just have it on the surface on the southside. People in the city love burning tax payer money for no reason.

It was considered to build underground since it was easier and no more costly to build the tunnel launch portal at Don Mills, I’ve mentioned this a few times recently.

 

[Voltz]

Why is every single person who is part of a neighbourhood/"concerned" residents association always such a f***ing moron?

They later complained about the construction disruption and tree removal at the launch portal,