[micheal_can]

After then 1990s cuts and the burring in of the Eglinton subway, transit city was the city trying to do something that might be possible within the funding available. Just like Smartrack and other Toronto transit initiatives, they are a sign of those times. I could make a list of about 8 different subways/subway extensions that should be open today that are not.

The challenge of Eglinton is what happens when they are running as many trains as they can and it is still not enough. That is where most of those 8 extensions come into play.

So, here are those extensions that should be open today.
Under construction:
Line 2 east extension
Ontario Line east.
Yonge North extension


Not under construction
Ontario Line west
Line 4 west
Line 4 east to YYZ
Eglinton West
Line 2 west


We lost at least a decade or more as some of these have been on the books for decades.

My hope is that when Line 5 opens it is a resounding success. That it is so heavily used that the city and province learns that LRTs are not enough for Toronto proper.

 

[JSF-1]

After then 1990s cuts and the burring in of the Eglinton subway, transit city was the city trying to do something that might be possible within the funding available. Just like Smartrack and other Toronto transit initiatives, they are a sign of those times. I could make a list of about 8 different subways/subway extensions that should be open today that are not.

The challenge of Eglinton is what happens when they are running as many trains as they can and it is still not enough. That is where most of those 8 extensions come into play.

So, here are those extensions that should be open today.
Under construction:
Line 2 east extension
Ontario Line east.
Yonge North extension


Not under construction
Ontario Line west
Line 4 west
Line 4 east to YYZ
Eglinton West
Line 2 west


We lost at least a decade or more as some of these have been on the books for decades.

My hope is that when Line 5 opens it is a resounding success. That it is so heavily used that the city and province learns that LRTs are not enough for Toronto proper.

When you say Eglinton West do you mean the Crosstown West of the Eglinton West Subway? In the latter case there is a reason it was at the bottom of the priority list when it was proposed as part of Network 2011. It was to be the last project built as part of Network 2011 only when ridership/projections showed a need for the line, in the meantime bus lanes were supposed to be installed on Eglinton to help build ridership over the next 20-30 years. Our attempt to build the line in 90's was hugely misguided and is directly responsible for the Sheppard Line being truncated instead of built out to STC. Had we stuck to Network 2011 with the most ideal conditions then construction of the Eglington West Subway would have begun 2011 (which was what was projected in Network 2011). Given it takes us like 10 years to build anykind of underground line it would have opened by now.. HOWEVER it would only be the original line between Eglinton West and Pearson. There still wouldn't be a connection to Yonge Street or Kennedy since that wasn't part of the original plan and would probably still be like 20-30 years away from being built in this timeline. So we would have a subway on Eglinton, it would just be completely useless to the entire half of the city east of Allen Road and would remain that way until the 2040's at the earliest.

 

[micheal_can]

When you say Eglinton West do you mean the Crosstown West of the Eglinton West Subway? In the latter case there is a reason it was at the bottom of the priority list when it was proposed as part of Network 2011. It was to be the last project built as part of Network 2011 only when ridership/projections showed a need for the line, in the meantime bus lanes were supposed to be installed on Eglinton to help build ridership over the next 20-30 years. Our attempt to build the line in 90's was hugely misguided and is directly responsible for the Sheppard Line being truncated instead of built out to STC. Had we stuck to Network 2011 with the most ideal conditions then construction of the Eglington West Subway would have begun 2011 (which was what was projected in Network 2011). Given it takes us like 10 years to build anykind of underground line it would have opened by now.. HOWEVER it would only be the original line between Eglinton West and Pearson. There still wouldn't be a connection to Yonge Street or Kennedy since that wasn't part of the original plan and would probably still be like 20-30 years away from being built in this timeline. So we would have a subway on Eglinton, it would just be completely useless to the entire half of the city east of Allen Road and would remain that way until the 2040's at the earliest.

Eglinton west, as in either the old subway or the entire LRT to the airport.

And when it comes to what I listed, many of them would have already been built. For instance, the DRL has been suggested since the 80s. So, it could have been opened by the turn of the century.

 

[duty free]

Eglinton west, as in either the old subway or the entire LRT to the airport.

And when it comes to what I listed, many of them would have already been built. For instance, the DRL has been suggested since the 80s. So, it could have been opened by the turn of the century.

The DRL has been suggested since the 1880's.

 

[micheal_can]

The DRL has been suggested since the 1880's.

So,it could have been around as long as the existing subway.

The problem isn't a lack of ideas, it is a lack of construction.

 

[JSF-1]

For instance, the DRL has been suggested since the 80s. So, it could have been opened by the turn of the century.

Yes that is true, I believe 1996 (or around there) was the proposed completion date for the Pape-Spadina Ave section which would have been in time for the '96 Summer Olympics which Toronto bid on and lost to Atlanta (kinda makes you wonder how that or the '08 failed bids affected the city's transit expansion). I don't know when the proposed extensions to Eglinton and Dundas West would have been build but I could see the northern extension to Eglinton also being a higher priority then the Eglinton West Subway but I can't say for sure.

 

[duty free]

The prob

So,it could have been around as long as the existing subway.

The problem isn't a lack of ideas, it is a lack of construction.

The problem has always been a lack of continuous contruction, planning and funding.

Even now with more projects being built simultaneously than ever before, we still don't know what exactly we're building next. Once a project breaks ground, the next phase, extensions or new projects should already be known to the public. Right now we're guessing. Will Line 4 be extended east and west? What about the Ontario Line? Are we going to finally build something on Jane? What about Eglinton East and so on?

With one off projects it's impossible to retain the knowledge and expertize that makes continuous construction possible. With a lack of consistent funding it's easy for the next government to whimsically cancel the previous government's projects/proposals.

 

[JSF-1]

The prob

The problem has always been a lack of continuous contruction, planning and funding.

Even now with more projects being built simultaneously than ever before, we still don't know what exactly we're building next. Once a project breaks ground, the next phase, extensions or new projects should already be known to the public. Right now we're guessing. Will Line 4 be extended east and west? What about the Ontario Line? Are we going to finally build something on Jane? What about Eglinton East and so on?

With one off projects it's impossible to retain the knowledge and expertize that makes continuous construction possible. With a lack of consistent funding it's easy for the next government to whimsically cancel the previous government's projects/proposals.

This is certainly a problem. Metrolinx likes the produce grand plans but they have no teeth because there is no legislation or political backing behind them. You can argue that Transit City was the last truly comprehensive plan this city had that actually had political backing behind it. While LA isn't the greatest model to follow in some regards I absolutely love how their transit plans (e.g Measure M) aren't just fancy drawings, or projections, or nice to haves, but are actual fully thought out and costed plans that have political backing and are even legislated at the municipal and state levels. Not only does this ensure that the plans are actual built to the best of everyone's abilities but it also ensures that everyone knows what is going on and institutional knowledge can be created and shared between projects without there being massive decade long gaps between projects. Of course this only really works because California is effectively a one-party state controlled by the Dems so there is no fear of a future government coming in and repealing the legislation. I think the closest we ever got to this was Network 2011 since while it didn't have legislated protection, by that point the PC's had been in power for like 40 years and Davis was willing to spend money hand over fist on transit expansion. Of course once Davis retired it all went to hell. I believe had Davis not retired and the PC's not been taken over the Harris era lunatics we would be in a far better position.

 

[micheal_can]

The prob

The problem has always been a lack of continuous contruction, planning and funding.

Even now with more projects being built simultaneously than ever before, we still don't know what exactly we're building next. Once a project breaks ground, the next phase, extensions or new projects should already be known to the public. Right now we're guessing. Will Line 4 be extended east and west? What about the Ontario Line? Are we going to finally build something on Jane? What about Eglinton East and so on?

With one off projects it's impossible to retain the knowledge and expertize that makes continuous construction possible. With a lack of consistent funding it's easy for the next government to whimsically cancel the previous government's projects/proposals.

Yes. I have always thought that we should have continuous construction.Stop not when the ridership will drop, but when there is a lack of any built up areas. So, for instance,.... and yes it is crazy, Yonge line would be at least in Newmarket by now has that initial construction been continued. We already have the TBMs. Instead of burying them, refurbish them and keep going onto the next reasonable phase. Build it like we built the transcontinental line. We sent surveyors out, then crews to clear the land, then crews to build the rail base. Then lay track. They did not do one full section of all of it and then move to the next section. We could do transit much the same way. It would provide good paying long term high skilled jobs. That is the single reason why any infrastructure project takes forever, whether it be rail, road, or other infrastructure.

 

[T3G]

Found the ELL AREE TEE fanboy.

Question: by posting crap like this, do you honestly think you legitimize your argument or cause people to take you seriously?

You didn't find an LRT fanboy (why the infantile caps lock and the spelled out words?), what you found is an adult skeptical of the Fordian doctrine that subways are the only legitimate form of rail transportation, and who is interested in a frank and adult exchange of ideas. If you want to be a child about it, a Discord subway fan server or Instagram group chat may be more your speed. There is no reason why being skeptical of subways to suburbia should mean people are subjected to insults and ageism just because they don't share your view points.

This goes for you and anyone else on this forum who thinks that insults are a replacement for discussion. If your argument was worth anything at all, you wouldn't need to childishly attack those who disagree with you.

 

[Bojaxs]

Hahahaha the arrogance of Miller is astounding….for all the huffing and puffing he did about Transit City, I would expect him to be at the ribbon cutting ceremony and then ride the LRTs so people could give him a dose of reality.

I’m just glad Toronto saved itself by not diving 100% into this “TrAnSiT cITy” nonsense…..I always found the project timid, underwhelming and completely inappropriate for a city this size and stature. The frustrating part is that Toronto wasn’t always timid…..Post War Toronto up until the 80s, Toronto thought bold and big: the Yonge subway, Metro Toronto consolidation, the CN Tower, SkyDome, Pearson expansion, and the PATH system. These were built at a scale that matched the city’s growth. But starting in the late 70s and 80s, economic shocks, neighbourhood activism, and high-profile cancellations like the Spadina Expressway made ambitious projects politically risky. (For the record, I don’t oppose neighbourhood activism and am glad they got all the expressways cancelled, but the reaction by City Hall was way over the top). Restraint became a civic virtue, and caution hardened into ideology by the 1990s and early 2000s…..right by the time Miller became mayor.

Toronto was already a massive, diverse, international metropolis, but City Hall still operated with “Toronto the Good” instincts: risk-averse, obsessed with appearances, and cautious about anything that might upset the status quo. Transit City was the logical endpoint of that mindset: surface LRTs constrained by signals and intersections, sold as “pragmatic” and safe, but fundamentally mismatched to Toronto’s real needs. Miller may have believed in them…..or at least believed that appearing cautious was the right way to govern a city still psychologically uncomfortable with its own size.

The contrast with younger generations is stark. Late Gen X, Millennials, Gen Z, have only ever known Toronto as big, busy, and international. They don’t compare it to anywhere else; they just expect it to work….I was so happy when I heard people clowning Line 6….calling it a streetcar (because that’s exactly what it is) and how underwhelming it is…..I heard these conversations all on opening weekend:

- this should have been a subway
- how much did they spend on this?
- why are we stopping at signal lights?

And yet there are people on this forum who will go to the grave defending this ELL ARE TEE nonsense…..I guess some of you are from Millers generation as well….too timid and small minded…..unable to comprehend what Toronto has become. With Miller’s type of mentality, Line 1 would have never gone north of Eglinton and Line 2 would have ended at Woodbine and Keele.

With all due respect, the sooner this lot die off the better (not literally, but influentially). Hopefully this new generation of Torontonians who are unapologetically bold will force big city problems being addressed with big city solutions.

You said it all.

I'm never good at compiling my thoughts. I often struggle on this forum as to how to put into words my frustration. But you've done a good job of summing up my sentiments.

It's not enough to just say "I hate Line 6 cause it's slow". I hate Line 6 because it's a manifestation of all the poor transit choices over the last 15-20 years made by city councilors and politicians who thought they knew better than the general public and refused to build subways.

- "Let's build an underground LRT instead."
- "Lets add more stations on the GO lines within Toronto"

Often times the pro-LRTs only argument against subways is that "they're expensive". Well of course they're expensive, they're the best form of mass transit a city can have.

Also, Line 6 is a classic example of how Metorlinx and transit planners in Ontario focus too much on the big things, and often neglect the little things. Congrats! You built an LRT! But you forgot TPS, and why are the tram doors being left open at every station? etc., etc. This makes it seem as if our transit systems are being planned, built. and operated by people who don't actually use transit.

Having taken two trips to London earlier this year and seeing how the trains, underground, Overground, Elizabeth Line, DLR and buses all work in tandem with each other really highlighted to me the sorry state of transit in Toronto. In fact, I find myself now becoming more interested with transit across the U.K. and other European countries rather than continue to follow transit in Toronto & Ontario as a whole because it just puts me in a bad mood.

This obsession Canadian cities have with trying to run low floor LRTs as light metros needs to come to an end! Line 5 will be an abysmal failure! Calgary seriously needs to reconsider their choice of using low floor LRTs on the future Green Line, and I don't even know what the hell Ottawa is suppose to do!

And yes, Ontario needs a new "Bill Davis". A Conservative who isn't afraid to think big.

 

[Jac.]

To be honest, this line is taking so long to open I might forget about it when it actually does...

 

[smallspy]

So what is stopping the line from opening now?! ,Any insider info?

I don't know specifics, but to consider....
- Trains are still running on the line.
- Crews are still working inside at selected stations
- No official opening date for revenue service has been announced

That tells me a couple of things, especially when considering previous line openings we've dealt with here in Toronto:
- Whatever work that is being done is not on the ROW or any of the infrastructure required to actually run trains (rails, power, lighting, signalling, tunnels, etc.)
- In spite of Substantial Completion being met, there are still small issues that are serious enough to prevent the opening of the line to revenue service, and either their quantity or their complexity is enough to prevent the supply of an opening date

If I had to hazard a guess, the issues stem with things like elevating devices or lighting or life safety systems. Things that would affect the public from using the system (and particular in an emergency), but not necessarily the much more limited number of operating and construction crews.

Dan

 

[Northern Light]

I don't know specifics, but to consider....
- Trains are still running on the line.
- Crews are still working inside at selected stations
- No official opening date for revenue service has been announced

That tells me a couple of things, especially when considering previous line openings we've dealt with here in Toronto:
- Whatever work that is being done is not on the ROW or any of the infrastructure required to actually run trains (rails, power, lighting, signalling, tunnels, etc.)
- In spite of Substantial Completion being met, there are still small issues that are serious enough to prevent the opening of the line to revenue service, and either their quantity or their complexity is enough to prevent the supply of an opening date

If I had to hazard a guess, the issues stem with things like elevating devices or lighting or life safety systems. Things that would affect the public from using the system (and particular in an emergency), but not necessarily the much more limited number of operating and construction crews.

Dan

To my understanding, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the express direction from the Mayor's office was that Line 5 was not to open without the surface section being faster than the bus it replaced.

If that is in fact the case, there will need to be programming changes in the TSP, in some operating protocols and in the line schedule and staffing.

****

Budgetarily speaking, the line is budgeted for full operation from January 1st. Needless to say it will not be operating at that time. But that is the fiscal assumption baked into this year's budget.

 

[Bojaxs]

Video does a good job of explaining how trams are good on their own for certain corridors, but shouldn't be used in areas where a subway or metro would be more preferable. Such as Line 5 in Toronto.