[ssiguy2]

20 minutes is not possible just due to station spacing (line 2, our fastest RT line, does a similar stretch in 40ish minutes) but just getting to the projected 39min run time that the whole business case was predicated on would be miraculous at this point

They should get rid of 5 of these stops. 18 stops on a 10.3 km line is ridiculous. Remember this was suppose to be RAPID transit. The stop on Yonge between Eg & Law is 1.5km and they manage so what make the people along Finch, and ditto for oncoming Eglinton, so damn precious? The fewer the stops the easier it is to make sure the TSP works better to boot. IF the City decides that it wants to put transit riders ahead of drivers then they can turn this slow boat to China lemon into lemonade. If they don't, the riders of Toronto will find alternate ways of getting around and they can kiss any further LRT goodbye not only from Queen's Park but also the general public who don't want to see their faster bus being replaced for nothing more than a ribbon cutting ceremony.

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

They should get rid of 5 of these stops. 18 stops on a 10.3 km line is ridiculous. Remember this was suppose to be RAPID transit. The stop on Yonge between Eg & Law is 1.5km and they manage so what make the people along Finch, and ditto for oncoming Eglinton, so damn precious? The fewer the stops the easier it is to make sure the TSP works better to boot. IF the City decides that it wants to put transit riders ahead of drivers then they can turn this slow boat to China lemon into lemonade. If they don't, the riders of Toronto will find alternate ways of getting around and they can kiss any further LRT goodbye not only from Queen's Park but also the general public who don't want to see their faster bus being replaced for nothing more than a ribbon cutting ceremony.

if the original plans were followed through with Line 1 would have had a station built in between Lawrence and Eglinton at Glencairn/Yonge and in between Lawrence and York Mills at Yonge Blvd / Glen Echo. Instead they decided to parallel the subway with the 97 Yonge bus to save money

 

[urbanclient]

if the original plans were followed through with Line 1 would have had a station built in between Lawrence and Eglinton at Glencairn/Yonge and in between Lawrence and York Mills at Yonge Blvd / Glen Echo. Instead they decided to parallel the subway with the 97 Yonge bus to save money

Global best practices for subways in the suburbs is wide stop spacing 2 or more km between stations (which is what the Line 1 extension was at the time it was built). It's entirely normal for buses to serve as local transit and feed subways in the suburbs. Even in a dense secondary CBD, the 97 runs with plenty of ridership through North York city centre, Sheppard to Finch, even though there are 3 stations along a 2 km stretch.

 

[JSF-1]

if the original plans were followed through with Line 1 would have had a station built in between Lawrence and Eglinton at Glencairn/Yonge and in between Lawrence and York Mills at Yonge Blvd / Glen Echo. Instead they decided to parallel the subway with the 97 Yonge bus to save money

It wasn't so much a means to save money as much as it was the TTC and Metro couldn't afford it after the residents around York Mills threw a fit when the TTC proposed having the subway cross the Hogs Hollow Ravine on a viaduct and York Mills be an elevated station. This blew up the budget and caused a cascading affect down the line since in order to reach the bottom of the ravine underground the line now had to start its decent further south thus killing the idea of a stop at Glen Echo and I believe it may have also required Lawrence Station be built deeper. The stop near Briar Hill was then cut due to the budget issue.

 

[KhalilHeron]

Will David Miller be at the ribbon cutting ceremony for Line 5? He should be. He's responsible for this project. It was his idea. He should be one of the first to ride it. The whole length of it... and then back the other way.

He was noticeably absent at the Line 6 grand opening. I guess he's just too big for Toronto now? He's probably got more important things to do.

I heard a talk he was giving a few years ago to promote a new book on the climate crisis, but he didn't talk about the book. He just went on and on about Transit city and how it was visionary and so much better than the current provincial projects.

 

[Richard White]

It wasn't so much a means to save money as much as it was the TTC and Metro couldn't afford it after the residents around York Mills threw a fit when the TTC proposed having the subway cross the Hogs Hollow Ravine on a viaduct and York Mills be an elevated station. This blew up the budget and caused a cascading affect down the line since in order to reach the bottom of the ravine underground the line now had to start its decent further south thus killing the idea of a stop at Glen Echo and I believe it may have also required Lawrence Station be built deeper. The stop near Briar Hill was then cut due to the budget issue.

Honestly though..

I wonder if the stations would have been well used. In those neighborhoods, the clientele is more affluent than most and are not the first people I would think of taking transit.

 

[JSF-1]

Honestly though..

I wonder if the stations would have been well used. In those neighborhoods, the clientele is more affluent than most and are not the first people I would think of taking transit.

I imagine they could get Rosedale or Chester levels of ridership, certainly on the lower side but by no means terrible. Obviously its impossible to say how those two stations would have changed travel patterns in the area. The stop at Glen Echo certainly would have made my life easier when I worked at the Loblaws there; although who knows if that Loblaws would even exist if the station had been built since I believe that plot is where the station would have been built since it's the old Glen Echo Loop site.

 

[beatle04]

I might be wrong but in theory, couldn't they add these as infill stations if they really wanted? I remember reading that even though the stations were dropped, they made sure the tracks were level in the spots where the stations would have been.

 

[jmi22]

I might be wrong but in theory, couldn't they add these as infill stations if they really wanted? I remember reading that even though the stations were dropped, they made sure the tracks were level in the spots where the stations would have been.

In theory, yes. But infill stations, particularly in areas with low likely ridership and very limited development potential just don't make it past first glances when considering the complexity and cost of the projects. The Line 1 shutdowns alone would likely make the TTC wince at any idea of these being built, even though they have gotten dreadfully comfortable with shutdowns for maintenance lately.

 

[Rainforest]

They should get rid of 5 of these stops. 18 stops on a 10.3 km line is ridiculous. Remember this was suppose to be RAPID transit. The stop on Yonge between Eg & Law is 1.5km and they manage so what make the people along Finch, and ditto for oncoming Eglinton, so damn precious? The fewer the stops the easier it is to make sure the TSP works better to boot. IF the City decides that it wants to put transit riders ahead of drivers then they can turn this slow boat to China lemon into lemonade. If they don't, the riders of Toronto will find alternate ways of getting around and they can kiss any further LRT goodbye not only from Queen's Park but also the general public who don't want to see their faster bus being replaced for nothing more than a ribbon cutting ceremony.

They did not want to remove stops, because they wanted to avoid the need to run parallel bus service.

Kind of makes sense, if they were able to operate at the advertized 22-23 kph average speed with all those stops.

In the present situation, the actual speed being in the 12-14 kph range, every option to make the LRTs run faster should be considered. Including the removal of all stops between the major arterials, and replacing those with a parallel bus running at a decent frequency.

After all, if the LRTs take almost twice the time to make a round trip, then you need almost twice as many drivers to maintain the desired frequency.

Speed up the LRTs, and you have several drivers available to run the parallel buses.

 

[T3G]

They should get rid of 5 of these stops. 18 stops on a 10.3 km line is ridiculous. Remember this was suppose to be RAPID transit. The stop on Yonge between Eg & Law is 1.5km and they manage so what make the people along Finch, and ditto for oncoming Eglinton, so damn precious? The fewer the stops the easier it is to make sure the TSP works better to boot. IF the City decides that it wants to put transit riders ahead of drivers then they can turn this slow boat to China lemon into lemonade. If they don't, the riders of Toronto will find alternate ways of getting around and they can kiss any further LRT goodbye not only from Queen's Park but also the general public who don't want to see their faster bus being replaced for nothing more than a ribbon cutting ceremony.

Bold of you to assume that they manage along North Yonge. In actuality, the current set up, without parallel express and local tracks, is an abject failure unless you live within reasonable walking distance of the stations. Or do you imagine that people with mobility challenges don't exist on that corridor?

Same old tired, subway fan argument. We built a subway one way 80 years ago and that means we shouldn't revisit our approach anywhere, under any circumstances, for whatever reason, going forward.

 

[crs1026]

Bold of you to assume that they manage along North Yonge. In actuality, the current set up, without parallel express and local tracks, is an abject failure unless you live within reasonable walking distance of the stations. Or do you imagine that people with mobility challenges don't exist on that corridor?

Same old tired, subway fan argument. We built a subway one way 80 years ago and that means we shouldn't revisit our approach anywhere, under any circumstances, for whatever reason, going forward.

FWIW the experience with the 149 Bloor West bus is instructive. Its ridership consists almost exclusively of mobility limited passengers. There is virtually no use of the 149 by people who are avoiding the subway. Station spacing is somewhat better along Bloor West (except over the Humber) - but clearly, once the subway stations have had mobility improvements added, this thing is going to be cancelled.

There may be a minimum subway stop spacing where a bus becomes desirable, but having a surface route to augment limited-stop transit is clearly not an automatic.

- Paul

 

[urbanclient]

In actuality, the current set up [...] is an abject failure unless you live within reasonable walking distance of the stations. Or do you imagine that people with mobility challenges don't exist on that corridor?

Same old tired, subway fan argument. We built a subway one way 80 years ago and that means we shouldn't revisit our approach anywhere, under any circumstances, for whatever reason, going forward.

I get the concern, but transit is designed so the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. To say that the minority of people with mobility challenges should be catered towards over other performance criteria is why we're so backwards on transit. Especially in low density areas. I'm not saying it's an either/or situation, like we have to choose between fast travel times and looking after disadvantaged demographics. Improving accessibility and retrofitting elevators is enough.

Global best practices show that wider station spacing improves travel times and ridership across the entire corridor. Designing rapid transit around edge cases instead of core economic and operational principles is how you end up with slower, less effective, under-used systems. Stop spacing in China averages over 1.8 km between stations. Despite that wide gap, I don't see many people complaining about poor accessibility. All stations have elevators and all stations have staff to help less mobile passengers.

Ideally, the way you shorten the walking distance to rapid transit is not by cramming more stations on one line, but by building more lines.

 

[ssiguy2]

I'm curious, seeing Eg & Finch were both PPP, how much money did the private company {Mosaic?} have to put down for the privilege of running the route?

 

[Bordercollie]

Oh my...is that a NEW Payphone!!!! It was probably installed before cell phones.... lol

(Photo from the Globe & Mail article)
View attachment 692146

Actually it's not surprising at all. It's supposed to serve all demographics of society so it's almost a mandatory requirement