[Bojaxs]

And what makes you think that Metrolinx would do a better job?

Hint: Go look at GO timetables from 10 years ago and compare them to today.

Dan

But look at how Metrolinx & Alstom seem to place more emphasis on speed and "on time" performance with the GO trains. Including having doors close 1 minute before departure. Could they migrate this mentality over to Lines 5 & 6?

TTC and their Union appear to operate in a completely opposite manner. Over emphasis on safety, resulting in slow trains. No one's penalized for poor "on time" performance.

EDIT: Wasn't Verster and some higher ups in MX recieving bonuses if "on time" performances were met for the year? Hence Verster introducing the "closing doors 1 minute before departure" rule.

 

[eglinton1661]

From TTC board meeting happening right now:

- Myers: what is the estimated run time for Line 5. TTC staff: contractual number for round trip time is 98 minutes during rush hour and 90 minutes outside rush hour
- The current schedule we have for RSD is currently scheduling 112 minutes round trip

Full transcript:

Myers: Was there ever a discussion about publicly updating the timeline with these new end to end run times [for line 6]?

TTC staff: No, I can't recall that there was ever a discussion about there being a form of communication, because this was a contractual issue. I think that they were just wanting to have that discussion internally with the TTC and with the city, with mosaic and with Metrolinx,

Myers: given everything, is the position of staff that that would be, that that was the correct decision, and would staff take the similar decision if we were to talk about line 5, in terms of if it was known that the end to end run times would be significantly different than what was publicly stated. Should that be publicly expressed ahead of the lines opening to set expectations?

TTC staff: We were always looking to for ways to make the system run faster. In terms of whether or not it should've been communicated I think that's a decision that would have to have been made by Metrolinx in consultation with the city and the TTC, so there wasn't any sort of indication that they were gonna say hey, listen, it was 30 minutes before and it's now 45. There wasn't any sort of discussion on that. Should there have been? I think that's probably a discussion that should be had maybe as a potential lessons learned.

Myers: So what is the current estimated end to end run time for line 5? The public number. And is that number still accurate?

TTC staff: The contractual number for Line 5 is a round trip time of 98 minutes during rush hour and 90 minutes out of rush hour.

Myers: And is that accurate?

TTC staff: The current schedule that we have for revenue service demonstration to allow the line to actually achieve the performance that is needed, we are currently scheduling 112 minutes round trip.

Myers: And is there any additional measures that can be taken to lower that 112 minutes? And is that during rush hour or non rush hour time?

TTC staff: similar to line 6 we've adopted a single run time for all periods until we have the operational experience so that we can adjust the times accordingly.

Myers: and are there measures being looked at to reduce that end to end run time?

TTC staff: if there are any measures being considered they have to be consdiered in consultation with the TTC as the operators as well as with mosaic transit group [sic] as the broader system operators. So at this point in time specifically I can't say there are these alternatives.

 

[eglinton1661]

At 112 minutes round trip, 56 minutes one way, Line 5 would have an average speed of 20.4 km/h

Here's the Crosstown website from 2016 claiming an average speed of 28km/h

https://web.archive.org/web/20160718200221/http://www.thecrosstown.ca/the-project

 

[urbanclient]

Full transcript:

Myers: Was there ever a discussion about publicly updating the timeline with these new end to end run times [for line 6]?

TTC staff: No, I can't recall that there was ever a discussion about there being a form of communication, because this was a contractual issue. I think that they were just wanting to have that discussion internally with the TTC and with the city, with mosaic and with Metrolinx,

Myers: given everything, is the position of staff that that would be, that that was the correct decision, and would staff take the similar decision if we were to talk about line 5, in terms of if it was known that the end to end run times would be significantly different than what was publicly stated. Should that be publicly expressed ahead of the lines opening to set expectations?

TTC staff: We were always looking to for ways to make the system run faster. In terms of whether or not it should've been communicated I think that's a decision that would have to have been made by Metrolinx in consultation with the city and the TTC, so there wasn't any sort of indication that they were gonna say hey, listen, it was 30 minutes before and it's now 45. There wasn't any sort of discussion on that. Should there have been? I think that's probably a discussion that should be had maybe as a potential lessons learned.

Myers: So what is the current estimated end to end run time for line 5? The public number. And is that number still accurate?

TTC staff: The contractual number for Line 5 is a round trip time of 98 minutes during rush hour and 90 minutes out of rush hour.

Myers: And is that accurate?

TTC staff: The current schedule that we have for revenue service demonstration to allow the line to actually achieve the performance that is needed, we are currently scheduling 112 minutes round trip.

Myers: And is there any additional measures that can be taken to lower that 112 minutes? And is that during rush hour or non rush hour time?

TTC staff: similar to line 6 we've adopted a single run time for all periods until we have the operational experience so that we can adjust the times accordingly.

Myers: and are there measures being looked at to reduce that end to end run time?

TTC staff: if there are any measures being considered they have to be consdiered in consultation with the TTC as the operators as well as with mosaic transit group [sic] as the broader system operators. So at this point in time specifically I can't say there are these alternatives.

I think everyone here is surprisingly calm after being told that a round trip on Line 5 Eglinton is going to be 112 minutes (presumably including recovery time at terminuses). Maybe think about how that 112 gels with Metrolinx's previous claim of 38 minutes end-to-end.

I was right. Line 5 Eglinton is completely cooked. Assuming 12 minutes recovery time at terminuses. The round trip is in fact 100 minutes, or 50 minutes end-to-end.

 

[micheal_can]

I think I need context.
Lets say there was a race.
Line 5/6
Bus
Bike
Car

During rush hour, Who would win? By how much?
Off rush hour, who would win? By how much?

If it takes 100 minutes on the LRT, but 110 by car or bus, then even though it is slow, it still is faster than the other options along the route.

 

[McGillicuddy]

I think everyone here is surprisingly calm after being told that a round trip on Line 5 Eglinton is going to be 112 minutes (presumably including recovery time at terminuses). Maybe think about how that 112 gels with Metrolinx's previous claim of 38 minutes end-to-end.

You are not the main character of this forum.

 

[urbanclient]

You are not the main character of this forum.

I don't care to be.

The Line 6 and impending Line 5 debacle affects a lot of people. Even if you never ride transit, you ought to care how your taxes are spent. Being willfully blind to undelivered promises isn't going to pressure politicians and TTC staff to right the ship. It's not speculation and napkin math anymore. 112 minute round trips for Eglinton are atrocious.

And while we're confidently speculating about adherence to non-existent and untested schedules, does anyone care to give me tomorrow's lottery numbers? Thanks!

 

[McGillicuddy]

I care a lot about transit.

I do not care about your predictions, your reactions, or your reactions to your predictions. I doubt I am alone in that.

 

[urbanclient]

I care a lot about transit.

I do not care about your predictions, your reactions, or your reactions to your predictions. I doubt I am alone in that.

You wanna muzzle me for being right occasionally and proving you wrong this one time? Or are you trying to suppress discussion that others care about, but you don't?

 

[APTA-2048]

But look at how Metrolinx & Alstom seem to place more emphasis on speed and "on time" performance with the GO trains. Including having doors close 1 minute before departure. Could they migrate this mentality over to Lines 5 & 6?

TTC and their Union appear to operate in a completely opposite manner. Over emphasis on safety, resulting in slow trains. No one's penalized for poor "on time" performance.

EDIT: Wasn't Verster and some higher ups in MX recieving bonuses if "on time" performances were met for the year? Hence Verster introducing the "closing doors 1 minute before departure" rule.

You’re blaming the wrong people. Those aren’t union rules.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I think everyone here is surprisingly calm after being told that a round trip on Line 5 Eglinton is going to be 112 minutes (presumably including recovery time at terminuses). Maybe think about how that 112 gels with Metrolinx's previous claim of 38 minutes end-to-end.

the 90 minute original contract loop probably aligns with the 38 minute travel time, so 14 minutes dwell on either end. So a 49 minute total travel time or average speed of 23km/h. Not as disastrous as Finch West, but the reality is likely that we are looking at close to the original target for travel times in the tunnel and significantly slower run times on the surface. Assuming Eglinton is averaging close to the 13-15km/h that Finch averages, the surface portion east of Laird will be a ~25 minute run time (15km/h) with the tunnel being ~24 minutes (29km/h) which is reasonable.

 

[picard102]

I don't care to be.

The Line 6 and impending Line 5 debacle affects a lot of people. Even if you never ride transit, you ought to care how your taxes are spent. Being willfully blind to undelivered promises isn't going to pressure politicians and TTC staff to right the ship. It's not speculation and napkin math anymore. 112 minute round trips for Eglinton are atrocious.

Oh no! Not my tax dollars!!!!!!

 

[urbanclient]

the 90 minute original contract loop probably aligns with the 38 minute travel time, so 14 minutes dwell on either end. So a 49 minute total travel time or average speed of 23km/h. Not as disastrous as Finch West, but the reality is likely that we are looking at close to the original target for travel times in the tunnel and significantly slower run times on the surface. Assuming Eglinton is averaging close to the 13-15km/h that Finch averages, the surface portion east of Laird will be a ~25 minute run time (15km/h) with the tunnel being ~24 minutes (29km/h) which is reasonable.

I hope you are right about terminus dwell time, and wrong for the other stuff. I heard 21 minutes for the underground and above ground portion for a total of 42 minutes moving from @smallspy , who seems quite reputable. I guess that was Crosslinx or Metrolinx operating the line at that point? I don't know 100% who exactly is operating Line 5 to get 49 minutes now, but I assume it's the TTC.

If you're splitting the time for below and above ground sections at 24 and 25 minutes, instead of 21 minutes and 28 minutes respectively, then there would be less potential time savings by implementing better operations, TSP etc... on the above ground section. I fail to see how they could squeeze significant time savings, if any, out of the ATC underground section. Assuming we can only squeeze 8 minutes out of the above ground section, since the original above ground time was supposed to be ~17 minutes, then the realistic end-to-end time after potential Q1 2026 fixes would be 41 minutes. That's still slower than the 38 minutes spoken about for years by Metrolinx.

[...]

EDIT: forgot to say, L6 Finch West currently averages closer to 11-13 km/h, not 13-15. Which relates to my prediction that the Eglinton surface section will take 28 minutes at least for 7.7km.

 

[ThenWhat]

Full transcript [from TTC board meeting]

[…]

TTC staff: The current schedule that we have for revenue service demonstration to allow the line to actually achieve the performance that is needed, we are currently scheduling 112 minutes round trip.

I am trying to parse these responses. "we are currently scheduling 112 minutes" doesn't sound like a definitive answer. My followup question would be "And how close are you to that schedule in actual RSD runs?"

112 minutes divided by 28 trains gives us 4 minute headway, on average. I would not be too upset if there really was a train on line 5 every 4 minutes. But, after experience with other TTC routes, many of us would not be happy if there was a wide variation of headways and bunching, so that every so often that 4 minute average would become 10 or 15 minutes. So it would be good to know if the RSD managed to keep the time intervals between trains equal.

 

[urbanclient]

I am trying to parse these responses. "we are currently scheduling 112 minutes" doesn't sound like a definitive answer. My followup question would be "And how close are you to that schedule in actual RSD runs?"

112 minutes divided by 28 trains gives us 4 minute headway, on average. I would not be too upset if there really was a train on line 5 every 4 minutes. But, after experience with other TTC routes, many of us would not be happy if there was a wide variation of headways and bunching, so that every so often that 4 minute average would become 10 or 15 minutes. So it would be good to know if the RSD managed to keep the time intervals between trains equal.

The 112 minutes includes extra recovery time at terminuses which are usually longer than the scheduled headways afaik. Someone else (@innsertnamehere ) mentioned 14 minutes which seems like an accurate deduction, so a round trip for the typical rider would be 98 minutes or 49 minutes one way.