[bearcat]

Are there currently enough trains to run 3 car trains? I wonder if there would be difficulties buying more flexity trains given that Bombardier is no more and the previous issues with delivering the Flexity vehicles.

They can probably make 2 3 car trains from 3 2 car trains and then buy different rolling stock that's 3 cars long.

 

[nfitz]

Are there currently enough trains to run 3 car trains? I wonder if there would be difficulties buying more flexity trains given that Bombardier is no more and the previous issues with delivering the Flexity vehicles.

At what frequency? I don't believe there is at Metrolinx's desired 190 seconds. But if TTC has gotten their way, at 300 seconds - then yes there is. And that would be about 8,800 an hour.

This is really the least of their concerns. And if demand is unexpectedly that high, then this will be a great success. There's only 76 cars now, and presumably there'll be an extra order for the Phase 2 extension to Renforth station, and Phase 3 to Pearson. Easy to tack on some more.

It's still not clear to me what the travel times are, so I don't know how many cars they currently need.

 

[drum118]

Hopefully by the time many of the eastern developments are complete, the Ontario line will be open to act as a syphon

If and when the overcrowding happens, riders will have a choice of either going to Kennedy or the Science Centre for the area between Don Mills and Kennedy. Riders can catch the GO train at Kennedy or the OL at the Science Centre unless they have to use the Yonge Line in either direction. West of Yonge will see less ridership than the east.

The 3rd car will not be added for sometime until headway is down to 2-3 minutes. On opening day, 2 cars are needed at 5 minute headway and will be overcrowded because people will want to ride the line on opening day with visitors all places from outside Toronto.

As for traffic lights based on what I have seen the past few year for the surface section will be an issue at this time until we see true running schedule testing.

As for enough 3 car trains, ML has enough at this time and may see a few for special events and maybe at peak time in service. If they need more, it will take 2 years to get them once the forecast for them is seen well in advance on less they move to 50 meter cars since the existing fleet nearing the end of their life cycle. How many years have they been here so far with very low millage on them so far??

 

[nfitz]

I am just hoping the eastern section that's on street will with traffic signals will not be an impediment to running more frequent trains. As that's the section that runs through Golden Mile.
...
I am sure this topic has been beaten to death in this thread. I think we just have to wait and see how everything works in practice.

We've had naysayers arguing that issue here for 15 years now. Weeks away from trial operations, perhaps it's time to just wait and see. There's been less concerns expressed here since they started running the trains on the surface section back in 2021.

I wonder if there would be difficulties buying more Flexity trains given that Bombardier is no more and the previous issues with delivering the Flexity vehicles.

Alstom is currently in the middle of delivering the order for 60 additional similar Flexitys for TTC. Alstom still has the expertise and tooling to build these cars.

West of Yonge will see less ridership than the east.

I don't believe that's what the models showed for the 2030s scenario. Though both are far higher than the abysmally low ridership west of Jane, where some segments in AM peak had a ridership of 0. Obviously it won't be 0, but we aren't talking thousands there.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

I agree the line has enough capacity, but what about the impact of this on Line 1? If it diverts some load from Line 2 I could see it either helping overcrowding at Bloor-Yonge by spreading some of the load. But it could also do the opposite.

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

Are there currently enough trains to run 3 car trains? I wonder if there would be difficulties buying more flexity trains given that Bombardier is no more and the previous issues with delivering the Flexity vehicles.

Alstom (who bought Bombardier) will build them like they are building the 60 additional legacy streetcars for Toronto.

 

[drum118]

I agree the line has enough capacity, but what about the impact of this on Line 1? If it diverts some load from Line 2 I could see it either helping overcrowding at Bloor-Yonge by spreading some of the load. But it could also do the opposite.

Both line 1 and 2 over time will see new riders to replace the ones who move to OL and line 5 with Yonge and Bloor seeing more riders than today. Yonge and Bloor will see more riders as more development comes on like Line 1 due to the amount of new development taking place there now and down the road along it as well being feed into from other routes. Line 2 will see some increase of riders being feed into it as the amount of new development along it will be low. The extension to the east will see increase of development.

We've had naysayers arguing that issue here for 15 years now. Weeks away from trial operations, perhaps it's time to just wait and see. There's been less concerns expressed here since they started running the trains on the surface section back in 2021.

Alstom is currently in the middle of delivering the order for 60 additional similar Flexitys for TTC. Alstom still has the expertise and tooling to build these cars.

I don't believe that's what the models showed for the 2030s scenario. Though both are far higher than the abysmally low ridership west of Jane, where some segments in AM peak had a ridership of 0. Obviously it won't be 0, but we aren't talking thousands there.

If you add all the current route numbers for all buses going east of Yonge and compare it to all routes west of Yonge, you will see a fair speed between them today. The east has 10 time or more development going on it over the next 20 years compare to the west that will drive up ridership numbers even more than today for the east compare to the west.

There maybe a spike in ridership between The Spadina Line 1 and The Yonge line 1 for those who want to go to X on Yonge in the first place north of Union, but west of that will be low for new riders.

Model scenario can change over time depending what is taking place work wise along with the economic at all levels and the line isn't even open as plan.

As it stands today, TTC has received 35 out of 60 cars and if the current rate remains, they will all be here by August or sooner. TTC will not have 263 for service when all cars are here as there are current 5 cars in the dead end line. A fair number of the new cars are not in service as they are waiting new parts and all of them are taking a lot longer to enter service as well being out of order being delivery some thing that never happen with the current fleet.

 

[kaptrice]

No.

The passenger projections were based on exactly the kind of growth we are seeing. And even in the 2030s were less than 6,000 per hour per direction (if I remember correctly at Cedarvale - but similar at Eglinton-Yonge). That can be accomplished with 12 trains an hour - once every 5 minutes (300 seconds). Even with the current rolling stock, Metrolinx wants to run them every 190 seconds. That alone gives a capacity of 9,300 per hour per direction.

And the initial trains are only going to be 2-cars - and it's built for 3-cars. So worst-come-to-worst (best-come-to-best!) they buy more cars, and that increases capacity by another 50% - to give almost 14,000 per hour per direction. Far more than the estimated demand.

And then that's still based on 3'10" frequencies. What's the minimum frequency they can achieve with the current layout and signalling. 2'30" (anyone? I'm not sure)? That's 17,640 an hour.

There zero issue of overcrowding, if they choose to run service frequently enough.

We've discussed this several times previously, earlier in this thread.

It's not scaled so ideally, the peak headway on the highest 3-LRV service level isn't quite as short as that on the highest 2-LRV one, which is something like 19 Toh. In the second place, when you are counting capacities based on the 6 passengers per square metre, that is already overcrowding.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

It's not scaled so ideally, the peak headway on the highest 3-LRV service level isn't quite as short as that on the highest 2-LRV one, which is something like 19 Toh. In the second place, when you are counting capacities based on the 6 passengers per square metre, that is already overcrowding.

I wonder if they've accounted for longer dwell times as well. The Ottawa experience shows if your going to run a low floor LRV like a subway, you need to dwell at stations for quite a bit longer than a high floor vehicle. It takes longer for passengers to distribute themselves due to the choke points at the wheel wells, and if it's too short you get passengers holding the doors a lot, and more door jams requiring intervention

Even though the vehicles are similar to the streetcars, they won't be running like a streetcar so it's something to watch out for

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

I wonder if they've accounted for longer dwell times as well. The Ottawa experience shows if your going to run a low floor LRV like a subway, you need to dwell at stations for quite a bit longer than a high floor vehicle. It takes longer for passengers to distribute themselves due to the choke points at the wheel wells, and if it's too short you get passengers holding the doors a lot, and more door jams requiring intervention

Even though the vehicles are similar to the streetcars, they won't be running like a streetcar so it's something to watch out for

We'll see if the surface sections will get "real" transit priority or will get the single-occupant automobile priority at signalled intersections like on the right-of-way streetcar lines.

 

[smallspy]

It's not scaled so ideally, the peak headway on the highest 3-LRV service level isn't quite as short as that on the highest 2-LRV one, which is something like 19 Toh.

You're correct.

I'll have to check with the experts in that field, but I seem to remember that the maximum throughput of the signaling system and track layout at Mount Dennis allows for 25 trains / hour considering 300 foot long trains.

And while it would be problematic to operate the eastern end of the line at those frequencies, recall that at that headway the service pattern would have every second eastbound train turn back at Brentcliffe, not continue on the surface section of the line.

In the second place, when you are counting capacities based on the 6 passengers per square metre, that is already overcrowding.

You're absolutely right, and this is part of the problem with Metrolinx's metrics which generally rely on the manufacturer's ratings, and not observed operational limits like the TTC's.

So those numbers end up being the absolute maximum capacities, not what is projected to be the maximum capacity of the line from an operational standpoint. Just like how the TTC aims for a something like a theoretical maximum operational capacity of 32,000 passengers / direction /hour on the YUS, even though running trains at those headways (and considering a 6 passengers / metre loading) would result in an absolute maximum of something closer to 43k.

I wonder if they've accounted for longer dwell times as well. The Ottawa experience shows if your going to run a low floor LRV like a subway, you need to dwell at stations for quite a bit longer than a high floor vehicle. It takes longer for passengers to distribute themselves due to the choke points at the wheel wells, and if it's too short you get passengers holding the doors a lot, and more door jams requiring intervention

Even though the vehicles are similar to the streetcars, they won't be running like a streetcar so it's something to watch out for

The number of doors is the biggest single factor in affecting dwell time. Level boarding, regardless of the floor height, is a close second. Once people are clear of the doors they can move around within the vehicle while it is in motion, so the internal configuration of the vehicle is a far smaller factor in the grand scheme of things.

The biggest issue with the LRVs being used in Ottawa and Toronto is that they don't have enough doors.

Dan

 

[Kyle Campbell]

The biggest issue with the LRVs being used in Ottawa and Toronto is that they don't have enough doors.

Dan

The low floor design precludes adding more doors, for the same reason it causes choke points

If you walk end to end in this virtual tour, there's only one spot on the train where more doors could have been added, for some.reason or other one module has a single set of doors rather than the pairs on all others. I'm sure the Flexities are configured similarly, as many doors as the vehicle design allows.

Spirit trains | OC Transpo

www.octranspo.com

 

[T3G]

The low floor design precludes adding more doors, for the same reason it causes choke points

If you walk end to end in this virtual tour, there's only one spot on the train where more doors could have been added, for some.reason or other one module has a single set of doors rather than the pairs on all others. I'm sure the Flexities are configured similarly, as many doors as the vehicle design allows.

Spirit trains | OC Transpo

www.octranspo.com

It's not a function of the low floor, you wouldn't be able to add more doors on to the high floor subway cars either.

The problem is that more doors weren't added during the design process, I.e. by extending the car body. Once the vehicle has been built you're screwed regardless of floor height.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

It's not a function of the low floor, you wouldn't be able to add more doors on to the high floor subway cars either.

The problem is that more doors weren't added during the design process, I.e. by extending the car body. Once the vehicle has been built you're screwed regardless of floor height.

The Citadis trams in Ottawa and on Line 6 Finch are about as long as trams get. The problem is placement.

If you look at a Calgary ctrain made of 4 cars, it's about the same length as a two car Citadis. There's 16 doors per side on the Calgarys S200s, versus 15 for Ottawa. Ottawa could have a max of 16 if the one module with a single door was swapped for the two door model, but you need that middle bogie so can't be done

But there's another advantage for the s200. All 16 doors are evenly spaced, whereas for the Citadis it's clumped to one end of the module due to where the bogies are, which impedes passenger flow and distribution

The Flexities in a 3 car configuration would be of similar length and are even worse. There's 12 doors per side. They are evenly spaced, but half of them are narrow doors, again due to bogey and cab placement

 

[TOtramz]

Is there enough capacity at the mount Dennis facility to receive more trains?