[Steve X]

What kind of problem is going to come up during a soft launch that the months and months of testing hasn't/won't uncover/ed? The example of door problems specifically is significantly unlikely as the rolling stock has been here for more than 3 years which is more than enough time to have tested it and made sure everything runs properly.

Especially if it's similar to the current streetcars and the ones in used in Kitchener-Waterloo for a few years now. Unlike the Citadis Spirit, this is not a completely new product and these shouldn't have those operating issues. The ATO communication is likely the only major problem that can occur. Most of the issues should have been sorted out with the Flexity streetcars by now and not reintroduced in the Freedoms.

 

[cplchanb]

What kind of problem is going to come up during a soft launch that the months and months of testing hasn't/won't uncover/ed? The example of door problems specifically is significantly unlikely as the rolling stock has been here for more than 3 years which is more than enough time to have tested it and made sure everything runs properly.

You are naive to believe that even with an existing street car it will be problem free. This is a brand new system and people will complain for whatever reason. Each of those complaints need to be addressed and depending on what it is it can be a serious or minor item. My argument is since you have the chance they can at least find ways to address these issues in real world conditions s before the fanfare and tigger tape parade. Since metrolink is so obsessed with having their Centerpiece station open along with everything else would it not also be embarrassing if there was a problem there's a problem after the launch that they could have addressed earlier. In this day and age all it takes is one bad Twitter post and everything goes down hill from there

 

[T3G]

There is nothing naive about expecting a vehicle which has been here for three years to be working by now, especially when you consider that they've literally not had a chance to do anything BUT test for 3+ years, meaning they can take any kind of radical action against the problem and not worry about affecting service.

Furthermore, your approach doesn't set out a clear timeframe for when things will be ok and the uninformed opinions of the unwashed masses will cease to be a concern. What if they do a dry launch and everything works fine, and then they do a grand opening and something doesn't work?

 

[smallspy]

I have a feeling that there may be a confederation line type of technical debacle shortly after opening. A phased launch with lesser traffic can allow for these potential bugs to be mitigated. Imagine a full shutdown on eglinton 2 wks after opening due to the door issues or something similar. at that point people would be questioning why they didnt soft launch when they had it available to them to do so.

The TTC doesn't do launches like OC Transpo does. How many major faults and snags do you remember during the opening of the TYSSE or Sheppard Line?

Hint: it was zero.

Dan

 

[cplchanb]

The TTC doesn't do launches like OC Transpo does. How many major faults and snags do you remember during the opening of the TYSSE or Sheppard Line?

Hint: it was zero.

Dan

just because it hasnt happened doesnt guarantee it wont happen. and besides, this is essentially free revenue that they are passing up with the benefit of
less traffic to shock the system. not to mention this is their first true LRT system and from the smaller street operations they can optimise their operations based on
real world traffic. Considering the negative response to their unwillingness to implement TSP, they could've had a cheap litmus test to see if their decision was a good or bad one.

 

[T3G]

First true LRT system? That's fairly hyperbolic, it's a streetcar that runs faster and they've been running those for over 100 years (though, in fairness, the TTC has failed to optimize the system and seems to have discarded any lessons they learned from the past). The only real new thing is the signalling system.

 

[cplchanb]

First true LRT system? That's fairly hyperbolic, it's a streetcar that runs faster and they've been running those for over 100 years (though, in fairness, the TTC has failed to optimize the system and seems to have discarded any lessons they learned from the past). The only real new thing is the signalling system.

That's the thing. It's supposed to be an LRT system and yes, by how they plan to run it, the first few months of operations would expose any flaws in their proposed operating model. Having a smaller operation do an initial run would be far more favorable than doing the full rollout just to find that the entire system is flawed

 

[dad pad]

I believe there is a famous Donald Rumsfeld quote about these sorts of situations

 

[Aplus23]

How/where are they still pouring concrete?? Maybe the outside pavilion or outside in genera. I would hope it's only the finishing touches on the inside but that doesn't seem like the case

 

[nfitz]

You are naive to believe that even with an existing street car it will be problem free. This is a brand new system and people will complain for whatever reason

The almost exact same vehicle has been in service for years now in Waterloo.

 

[StroadWarrior]

How/where are they still pouring concrete?? Maybe the outside pavilion or outside in genera. I would hope it's only the finishing touches on the inside but that doesn't seem like the case

To my knowledge, it's mostly just at Yonge & Eglinton at this point. If you go up the escalators at the main entrance to the subway and look out the window, you can see they're pouring what looks like the pedestrian tunnel underneath the intersection, overtop the station box. Will post a pic when I get a chance to go by again. I think all the other stations (save maybe Cedarvale?) are all done with concrete.

 

[smallspy]

just because it hasnt happened doesnt guarantee it wont happen. and besides, this is essentially free revenue that they are passing up with the benefit of
less traffic to shock the system. not to mention this is their first true LRT system and from the smaller street operations they can optimise their operations based on
real world traffic. Considering the negative response to their unwillingness to implement TSP, they could've had a cheap litmus test to see if their decision was a good or bad one.

Of course it won't guarantee that it won't happen. That's why the TTC will operate the system as a test for several months before actually opening the line to the public.

Dan

 

[cplchanb]

Of course it won't guarantee that it won't happen. That's why the TTC will operate the system as a test for several months before actually opening the line to the public.

Dan

test =/= real world. They have an opportunity to do a small rollout that can weed out bugs found in real world operation conditions that testing wont be able to find.
not to mention they will be making money. if they can do it why not instead of just letting the system sit there for months, wasting potential revenue.
right now this is not a technical issue, but a political optic ego issue from Metrolinx.

 

[Steve X]

That's the thing. It's supposed to be an LRT system and yes, by how they plan to run it, the first few months of operations would expose any flaws in their proposed operating model. Having a smaller operation do an initial run would be far more favorable than doing the full rollout just to find that the entire system is flawed

How is this different to the subway/streetcars? Basically this line is half subway and half streetcar.
Does the TTC have experience operating railways?
Does the TTC have experience operating mass transit?
Does the TTC have experience operating LRVs in a ROW?
Does the TTC have experience operating Flexity's?
Does the TTC have experience operating with ATO?
Does the TTC have experience opening new rail lines?

The answer is YES to all of them and NO to all of them for Ottawa (different vehicle type, but same situation)

test =/= real world. They have an opportunity to do a small rollout that can weed out bugs found in real world operation conditions that testing wont be able to find.
not to mention they will be making money. if they can do it why not instead of just letting the system sit there for months, wasting potential revenue.
right now this is not a technical issue, but a political optic ego issue from Metrolinx.

It's not ego, a partial opening without Eglinton would leave many first time riders lost and confused. A bad image would be painted along with potential terrible review of the line. Then people won't get out of their cars again to try again. The want to ensure people's first experience is a positive one, not an adventure where they got lost at Eglinton, ended up outside in pouring rain and stuck behind huge crowds trying to enter through another entrance to connect to Line 1.

 

[T3G]

test =/= real world. They have an opportunity to do a small rollout that can weed out bugs found in real world operation conditions that testing wont be able to find.
not to mention they will be making money. if they can do it why not instead of just letting the system sit there for months, wasting potential revenue.
right now this is not a technical issue, but a political optic ego issue from Metrolinx.

You still haven't specified exactly what kind of bugs they'll find in the real world that they won't find under testing, nor have you answered the question of what happens if a "small rollout" finds no issues, but then some crop up after the grand opening?

Also, partially opening the line is not really great from a customer service angle either. Forcing a transfer just to continue their journey, especially in the cold months that are ahead of us, would roll out angry comments from the Twitter crowd, too. Just leave it be, we've waited 10 years, we can stand to wait a few more months.