Palma
Senior Member
THats the point, its viewpoint would not be Toronto's viewpoint. Just like provincial governments always screw Toronto over and federal governments screw Ontario over.
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THats the point, its viewpoint would not be Toronto's viewpoint. Just like provincial governments always screw Toronto over and federal governments screw Ontario over.
Dan416
Senior Member
Because that's what Ford negotiated.
I agree with finishing the Sheppard subway. However, I think Eglinton should definitely go to the airport as well and am sad that got cut (while Miller was still in office mind you).
voxpopulicosmicum
Senior Member
P3s do not reduce cost, they defer its appearance for political purposes.
voxpopulicosmicum
Senior Member
To be clear, at this point I would accept a contract with the devil his-self if it would expand rapid transit in Toronto.
Dan416
Senior Member
I think a lot of us feel the same way. Let's just get it done.
nfitz
Superstar
They can reduce cost in ways one might not think.
For example, in the Canada Line, they reduced cost, by meeting the design specs, and only building the platforms 50 metres long (with 40 metre long trains), seriously compromising future expansion (by contrast, the Eglinton line trains will be over 90 metres long). They also reduced cost by doing the construction in a way that it seriously messed up Cambie for a couple of years - rather than doing it in less intrusive, but more expensive ways, like planned on Eglinton.
And of course there was all the foreign labour that was brought in from Asia and paid relatively low wages. Something a government agency would never do.
Palma
Senior Member
Of course these private firms will do whatever they can within the law and minimal safety concerns.
Palma
Senior Member
Perfectly said
Dan416
Senior Member
Sweet let's do it then!
toraerach
Active Member
Possibly, but it would also run the possibility of losing sight of the TTC's primary mission: to provide local transit. Just because our government today is run by transit friendly-ish folks doesn't mean it'll always be so. It is entirely possible that someday a provincial government could be formed with little to no representation from the City of Toronto, and that some rural or exurban MPP takes over the transportation portfolio. We already know that some of our very own city councillors don't care so much for late night buses or minimum service standards - would you trust people with absolutely no vested interests in the functioning of this city with decisions like that?
I'm all for regional integration, but there's a point where you're thinking too big picture to notice the little things. And if you have no accountability to the people affected by your decisions (whether you're an appointee on the Metrolinx board or the MPP for Middle-of-Rural-Southwest), you really don't have to care all that much.
Then again, if the province ever does take control of the TTC, I can see it being the first downloaded item after a PC victory (or an NDP victory, but for completely different reasons).
I wouldn't mind Metrolinx taking control of the TTC if it:
a) was governed by a board voted in by a rep-by-pop GTA-wide election
b) was completely autonomous from the province (including in its ability to raise revenue), and
c) that it also took control of the other GTA transit systems
officedweller
Senior Member
Note that the Canada Line 40m trains are 3.0 m wide (same width as a TO subway car).
So instead of the 80 m SkyTrain Bombardier MKII that is 2.6 m wide, you have a different vehicle used to meet the capacity specification (15,000 ppdph).
I think the CrossTown LRT vehicles are 2.6 m wide, aren't they?
The shorter platform also allowed shallower gradients between some stations (i.e. Olympic Village Station and Broadway - City Hall Station), which in turn allowed stations to be closer to the surface and cheaper to construct. Longer station platforms would mean digging level sections of track deeper "into the hillsides" so the guideway and next station may be very deep - adding to station excavation costs.
The winning bidder also chose to build the tunnel under one side of Cambie, not down the median, meaning lower utility relocation costs and that allowed a longer tunnel. The other bidder (Bombardier) didn't think of that and proposed an open trench guideway south of 49th Ave.
One question would be whether the CrossTown is too far along to allow a DESIGN, build, finance, opeate and maintain contract. If the line is built to uneconomic specifications (like Sheppard) then that may deter bidders.
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GenerationW
Senior Member
Toronto can't fund projects that big unless Queen's Park and/or Ottawa are on board. All Toronto can do is establish priorities and hope the funding comes through sooner rather than later.
nfitz
Superstar
While Canada Line trains are 3 metres wide, that's still 5% narrower than a Toronto subway car. And over 70% shorter trains.
So instead of the 80 m SkyTrain Bombardier MKII that is 2.6 m wide, you have a different vehicle used to meet the capacity specification (15,000 ppdph).
I think the CrossTown LRT vehicles are 2.6 m wide, aren't they?[/quote]No, they are 2.65 metre wide. If we pretend the vehicles are rectangles, the area of a 40 m by 3 m wide, train is 120 m². The Eglinton LRT would be 90 m by 2.65 m which is 239 m²; almost double the capacity of the Canada Line trains (if we pretend capacity is directly proportional to area).
Very good question if it's too far along. TTC seems to be set to start tending tunnel construction soon, and they've already tendered the portal construction and design contracts. Hard to see if any PPP bidding on this would have any leway in design at all - which is how money was saved in Vancouver. I'd think they've passed the point where there's any saving in money to be found that would exceed the huge profit margins that a PPP would require, and might as well just keep going with the current method.
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
we have done that waiting game for the past 15 20 years. I guess it's time for a city sales tax and road tolls.
EL72
New Member
From today's G&M: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...out-of-commission-for-4-years/article2262616/
Same old... but the incompetence of the TTC is becoming embarrassing imo.
Scarborough SRT to be out of commission for 4 years
By PATRICK WHITE
From Wednesday's Globe and Mail
After Pan-Am games, Scarborough's line will be down until 2019
The city's budget problems have thrown long-term transit planning into such disorder that even TTC head Gary Webster is having difficulty sorting it out.
At a budget meeting on Tuesday, Mr. Webster said Scarborough's decrepit SRT line will be down for seven years between 2015 and 2022 while it's replaced with new cars that will form the eastern leg of the Eglinton-Scarborough line.
He reiterated the point to reporters after the meeting. But he re-emerged from a short huddle with TTC and the mayor's office staff to correct himself.
"I was wrong," he said. "It is 2019 that the SRT will be back up and operational."
It was the first time the TTC has publicly placed a timeline on its plan to overhaul the rickety line, set to be shut down after the Pan-Am Games. Mr. Webster acknowledged that he's not altogether happy with the scenario.
"We're going to drive people away from transit, there's no question," he said, adding that a fleet of buses will pick up the slack.
Under former mayor David Miller's Transit City plan, the line was scheduled to be rebuilt by 2015. When Rob Ford came to power last year, he cancelled Transit City and signed a deal with the province to plow most of the funds it had committed to Mr. Miller's plan into an $8.3-billion crosstown line beneath Eglinton Avenue.
The city still needs $4.2-billion for a subway line along Sheppard Avenue, and is looking to the province, the private sector and an array of development charges for the funds.
The TTC's budget uncertainty didn't end there.
Mr. Webster admitted the TTC has only enough buses to last until the fall of 2013 under its current maintenance standards.
Plans to build a dedicated bus lane along Finch Avenue also appear financially shaky. "That will be pretty challenging considering the significant capital constraints that we've got," Mr. Webster said. "We currently don't have any capital money."
Councillor Peter Milczyn attempted to inject some certainty into the transit budget with a motion asking city staff to consider guaranteeing city hall's TTC subsidy for the next two years, while also imposing annual 10-cent fare increases through to 2014.
"Give that direction up front for three years and everybody knows what they're doing," Mr. Milczyn said. "The TTC staff can plan properly and the public isn't on pins and needles wondering about a fare hike."
Same old... but the incompetence of the TTC is becoming embarrassing imo.
Scarborough SRT to be out of commission for 4 years
By PATRICK WHITE
From Wednesday's Globe and Mail
After Pan-Am games, Scarborough's line will be down until 2019
The city's budget problems have thrown long-term transit planning into such disorder that even TTC head Gary Webster is having difficulty sorting it out.
At a budget meeting on Tuesday, Mr. Webster said Scarborough's decrepit SRT line will be down for seven years between 2015 and 2022 while it's replaced with new cars that will form the eastern leg of the Eglinton-Scarborough line.
He reiterated the point to reporters after the meeting. But he re-emerged from a short huddle with TTC and the mayor's office staff to correct himself.
"I was wrong," he said. "It is 2019 that the SRT will be back up and operational."
It was the first time the TTC has publicly placed a timeline on its plan to overhaul the rickety line, set to be shut down after the Pan-Am Games. Mr. Webster acknowledged that he's not altogether happy with the scenario.
"We're going to drive people away from transit, there's no question," he said, adding that a fleet of buses will pick up the slack.
Under former mayor David Miller's Transit City plan, the line was scheduled to be rebuilt by 2015. When Rob Ford came to power last year, he cancelled Transit City and signed a deal with the province to plow most of the funds it had committed to Mr. Miller's plan into an $8.3-billion crosstown line beneath Eglinton Avenue.
The city still needs $4.2-billion for a subway line along Sheppard Avenue, and is looking to the province, the private sector and an array of development charges for the funds.
The TTC's budget uncertainty didn't end there.
Mr. Webster admitted the TTC has only enough buses to last until the fall of 2013 under its current maintenance standards.
Plans to build a dedicated bus lane along Finch Avenue also appear financially shaky. "That will be pretty challenging considering the significant capital constraints that we've got," Mr. Webster said. "We currently don't have any capital money."
Councillor Peter Milczyn attempted to inject some certainty into the transit budget with a motion asking city staff to consider guaranteeing city hall's TTC subsidy for the next two years, while also imposing annual 10-cent fare increases through to 2014.
"Give that direction up front for three years and everybody knows what they're doing," Mr. Milczyn said. "The TTC staff can plan properly and the public isn't on pins and needles wondering about a fare hike."