kEiThZ
Superstar
Honestly, it's probably the economic package that decides this. I really don't think the government genuinely cares that much about the military need. Sad to say.
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- Thread starter Admiral Beez
- Start date
Honestly, it's probably the economic package that decides this. I really don't think the government genuinely cares that much about the military need. Sad to say.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
I believe the latest German offer is to have FOUR submarines delivered by 2036, which about matches the Koreans date for the first four boats. It's the following boats where Korea will shine on delivery speed, since Germany can only make the first four by stealing from German-Norway orders already building or planned. Thus the final unit of the following 10 submarines from Germany would likely not reach Canada until well into the 2040s.
afransen
Senior Member
I guess we'll soon find out. It seems like the government is doing well in extracting concessions from the bidders. One wonders how much we are paying for all the ancillary goodies vs just a straight best value deal.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
If they don’t win, the Koreans will be annoyed. The Germans have sold submarines to more than twenty countries, and can take it or leave it, while Canada was going to be Korea’s launch to the world. I don’t believe any other western country is seriously looking at Korean submarines, so a loss in Canada would be a real setback.
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kEiThZ
Superstar
Stealing production slots is robbing Peter to pay Paul. Who are we going to train with if we take their first subs?
lenaitch
Senior Member
We have a bit of a history of queue-jumping. The CF-101 Voodoos and C-17 Globemasters come to mind.
Edit: To be more accurate, the CF-101s were more of buying other people's used stuff, like the current subs.
Edit: To be more accurate, the CF-101s were more of buying other people's used stuff, like the current subs.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
Those two Mistrals would have been nice.
guavadelic
Active Member
The Germans were previously reluctant to commit to a specific timeline, so it seems the stiff Korean competition forced their hand. Which is still a risk because the German sub is still in production and yet to enter testing, which could impact the timeline to delivery.
However, the Germans in recent weeks have begun to close the gap; maybe enough to cause some serious hurt feelings across the Atlantic if they don't win the bid. The German defense minister was in Ottawa this week aggresively lobbying for their bid, even claiming that Germany was instrumental in Canada's acceptance into the EU's SAFE program.
Tough choice either way.
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lenaitch
Senior Member
True, although I'm not sure they fit into any existing military doctrine back then (or current for that matter). Other than having space to haul stuff around, maybe for a humanitarian purpose, the CAF doesn't have an amphibious role. I'm not exactly sure what Egypt does with them. I would have put money on them being re-sold to Russia.
kEiThZ
Superstar
They get plenty of deals from us. Not sure why we owe them the sub deal.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
I’m leaning Korean.
The Korean submarine is significantly larger than the Germany offering, with 1,000 tons more displacement, a third deck and overall more internal volume, though the KSS-III does have a larger crew (50 vs 30) than the German Rype 212CD. Even so, considering the size of our coastline, the Korean option is likely tops for habitability. I appreciate the need for secrecy, but it would be nice to see a YouTube tour of both options.
I hope we keep one of the Victorias as a museum piece.
afransen
Senior Member
It seems more capable, too, with the vertical launch capability, it can perform more types of missions.
afransen
Senior Member
I have dealt with Germans, they seem to have a cultural affinity to using potential hurt feelings and resulting consequences as leverage. Whichever bidder loses, I'm sure there are opportunities to buy other kit from them.
kEiThZ
Superstar
I am not sure the government cares that much about capability. But from a strictly capability consideration, it's not that much of a contest. The distances we face necessitate a larger vessel and longer range weapons. European kit is largely designed for puttering around the Med, North Sea and GIUK gap. We face weeks of transit just to get to those places.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
Plus the Koreans are developing a nuclear powered variant, which Canada may want in the 2050s.
South Korea goes full steam ahead on nuclear-powered submarines
Seoul plans to launch its first boat in the mid-2030s and commission it in “the late 2030s,” the government proclaimed.
www.defensenews.com
Even with the KSS-III range and size I'm concerned for our submariners if they're under the icecap for more than a few days. These are not the boats to transit from Esquimalt to Halifax in Jan-Feb.