nfitz
Superstar
Any idea how frequent the emergency exits need to be in Ontario for a tunnel like 401?
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- Thread starter denfromoakvillemilton
- Start date
Westey
Active Member
I thought MTO looked at this "Big Bold Idea" back in 2019 or so. That is, the tunnel from 427 to 404.
I recall MTO estimate was $50B or so (based on construction costs at the time).
christiesplits
Senior Member
Northern Light
Superstar
GS offices are on Wilson, but they manage own/rental on Sheppard just east of Bathurst (among many others).
In downtown, you might know them as 'Great Wise' and a large landlord in St. Jamestown.
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Monarch Butterfly
Superstar
Any development and/or redevelopment along the Line 4 extensions should be within 15-minute neighbourhoods. A 15-minute neighbourhood is an urban planning concept where residents can access most of their daily needs, such as work, shopping, education, and healthcare, within a 15-minute walk or bike ride from their homes. This approach aims to promote sustainable living, reduce car dependency, and enhance the quality of life in communities.
Rainforest
Senior Member
I do not enjoy raining on your parade, but - we need some realism.
15-minute neighbourhood is a totally unworkable concept.
People can do grocery shopping and send children to a local school. That largely happens already. With a considerable effort, local availability of primary health care / family doctors can be assured (perhaps). Need to fix the shortage of doctors for that, but at least this is doable in theory.
Everything else requires longer trips in a big city. Most of people will not find a job that needs their particular skill set in the 15-minute neighbourhood. You can't build a hospital or a university in every 15-minute neighbourhood. To reach a surgeon or a kidney expert, to enroll in a post-secondary program that fits your passion, you will need to travel longer. Probably, you will need to cross half of the city. Even for retail shopping, people will find a better choice and/or a better price away from their home, unless you abolish all competition between the retailers and make them all carry the same set of goods for the same price.
The only viable 15-minute neighbourhood, is an isolated 19-th century village. Where everyone works in the field, at the local blacksmith's, or in the local shop (one for the whole village). All kids go to the local school (grade 1-4), noone needs more education. Modern high-tech jobs or advanced medical procedures are unheard of.
15-minute neighbourhood is a totally unworkable concept.
People can do grocery shopping and send children to a local school. That largely happens already. With a considerable effort, local availability of primary health care / family doctors can be assured (perhaps). Need to fix the shortage of doctors for that, but at least this is doable in theory.
Everything else requires longer trips in a big city. Most of people will not find a job that needs their particular skill set in the 15-minute neighbourhood. You can't build a hospital or a university in every 15-minute neighbourhood. To reach a surgeon or a kidney expert, to enroll in a post-secondary program that fits your passion, you will need to travel longer. Probably, you will need to cross half of the city. Even for retail shopping, people will find a better choice and/or a better price away from their home, unless you abolish all competition between the retailers and make them all carry the same set of goods for the same price.
The only viable 15-minute neighbourhood, is an isolated 19-th century village. Where everyone works in the field, at the local blacksmith's, or in the local shop (one for the whole village). All kids go to the local school (grade 1-4), noone needs more education. Modern high-tech jobs or advanced medical procedures are unheard of.
nfitz
Superstar
I don't think 15-minute neighbourhood's have anything to do with medical facilities, or even most work places.
Nor is it about finding the cheapest price in town. Personally, I can find most things I regularly need within a 15-minute walk. Even more within a 15-minute streetcar ride.
Can I save a few cents by shopping at Costco. Well yeah, but then it's a 25-minute drive, with no exercise, to sell out my soul to an ironically souless Yankee corporation.
Steve X
Senior Member
A 15-minute neighbourhood would be for one's basic needs. School, recreation, library, park, groceries and basic minimum wage jobs can all be within the area. For an average person, this would mean the person won't have to leave the neighbourhood for most days of the month. Your doctor visits, MRI scan or highly educated technical jobs would not be located here. It just doesn't make sense.
If they can achieve this, transit would be more appealing while traffic will reduce. However given the number of specialized jobs out there that people do these days, it seems impossible to just stay within 15 min of home. People are commuting over an hour for minimum wage jobs.
CapitalSeven
Senior Member
Gee, I've lived in a mostly 15 minute neighborhood for decades. I'm shocked to find I imagined it all. I'm waking up in the shower in the burbs!
Rainforest
Senior Member
That means, you can reach you job in 15 min, all your medical appointments (if any) are within 15 min, and you got your post-secondary education living in a 15-min neighbourhood too? Good for you, but how common is that on the social scale?
The original claim is "residents can access most of their daily needs, such as work, shopping, education, and healthcare, within a 15-minute walk or bike ride from their homes".
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Rainforest
Senior Member
I think we need to be more clear with definitions here. If we exclude trips to/from the job or the university/college from the 15-min requirement, and exclude trips that most people don't make on the daily basis (a medical specialist, museum, boutique shopping, airport or train station etc), then a 15-min fulfillment of other daily needs is a viable option.
Basically, we are saying "people should not need to drive to get their groceries, or to get their kids to kindergarten / school". Sure, that's a good concept, and a realistic one.
Rainforest
Senior Member
It is worth noting that most of public transit trips take more than 15 min, if we count the door-to-door time. Most of people will need at least 10 min before and after they use transit: 5+ min to get to the transit stop, and 5+ min to get from the transit stop to where you are going. That means, even if in the most optimal case, a direct subway ride, you only have 5 min for the actual ride. Your destination should be no further than 3-4 km from you origin, if you are to make the trip in 15 min.
If you take surface transit, add at least 5 min waiting for the vehicle. And if a transfer is involved; bus to subway, bus to bus, streetcar to streetcar etc, then very few trips can be completed in less than 25-30 min.
Until recently, I had a job located very conveniently for a transit trip. 6 km by bus, then one stop by subway. The combined time in the moving vehicles only, around 15 min if everything goes smoothly. But the total trip time doors to doors? 35 min on average.
You see a large city with a large, extensively used transit system, that many residents ride to get to their jobs? Almost by definition, this is not a "15-min city" in terms of trips to work.
If you take surface transit, add at least 5 min waiting for the vehicle. And if a transfer is involved; bus to subway, bus to bus, streetcar to streetcar etc, then very few trips can be completed in less than 25-30 min.
Until recently, I had a job located very conveniently for a transit trip. 6 km by bus, then one stop by subway. The combined time in the moving vehicles only, around 15 min if everything goes smoothly. But the total trip time doors to doors? 35 min on average.
You see a large city with a large, extensively used transit system, that many residents ride to get to their jobs? Almost by definition, this is not a "15-min city" in terms of trips to work.
urbanclient
Senior Member
I believe @Monarch Butterfly said "can access most of their daily needs".
The other rebuttal is that about 1/3rd of people have a Bachelor's degree or higher in Canada, and only around 2/3rds have post-secondary education. A 15-minute neighbourhood is viable as long as you don't have to travel to a hospital or university campus. People including myself, make the mistake of driving long distances for cheaper goods, but forget to factor in cost of gas, car depreciation, and time. The rise of e-commerce makes 15 minute even more viable. The more high-tech a job is, the more likely it is to be remote. Companies are still hiring fully remote in 2026.
I would include transit into the equation, but I apparently the standard definition is walking and biking only.
Rainforest
Senior Member
I accept that "most" disclamer for non-daily/occasional trips, such as trips to medical specialists (that are non-daily for most people).
However, trips to/from job is a major part of life for many people, and a part of their daily routines. And, should be included in the concept one way or another.
E-commerce (home delivery) hides the actual trip from the end user, but in fact it might be very car-dependent. Unless they bank orders from each area and then send one track / van to deliver all of them, it can involve more car kilometres travelled than people visiting retail stores in-person (which can be done by public transit if it exists in the area).
I have an issue with that standard definition. If the concept is primarily targeting large cities, where public transit plays and will continue to play a prominent role, then how can it exclude public transit. I believe the concept needs to be modified, and renamed if it is no longer "15-min", but it has to define the role and expectations for public transit.
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nfitz
Superstar
Getting to work has zero to do with a 15-minute village.
And little to do with transit. I'm not sure why we are discussing it here.