[RapidTransit]

To question the existence of streetcars in Toronto on this forum is dangerous and a slippery slope. Tread carefully.

Prayers.

 

[JoeParez]

Here's a bit of a dumb observation, but it seems that streetcars require a huge amount of supporting infrastructure from the tracks all the way to the repair facilities. I know we all have a love affair with streetcars, but would buses make more economic sense? I'm sure this has been studied and that's why we have streetcars, and I'd rather get on a streetcar than a bus, but the infrastructure costs with streetcars seems enormous.

Are you the same person that posted this on the Toronto sub-reddit last week, suggesting that keeping the streetcars involved some sort of corruption?

 

[DSCToronto]

Here's a bit of a dumb observation, but it seems that streetcars require a huge amount of supporting infrastructure from the tracks all the way to the repair facilities. I know we all have a love affair with streetcars, but would buses make more economic sense? I'm sure this has been studied and that's why we have streetcars, and I'd rather get on a streetcar than a bus, but the infrastructure costs with streetcars seems enormous.

I agree with you that it's a dumb observation. Yes, streetcars DO have supporting infrastructure - tracks and overhead - that is not needed by a bus but both need repair facilities. Streetcars cost more than buses but also last longer than buses, can be operated (much cheaper) by one person and each can carry as many passengers as 5 or 6 buses. Of course, streetcars are not desirable on all routes but on busy ones they are really essential if one does not want streets even more congested with buses. This has been studied and written about by many who are better informed than me (esp. Steve Munro - whose blog you should look at.)

 

[dowlingm]

Well I know that when I'm a rider I'd prefer to be on a streetcar, but when I'm a driver or cyclist it's a lot easier to pass a bus than a streetcar. We've built this incredible streetcar architecture (Spadina, St. Clair West) but it really hasn't lived up to expectations. And then it feels like we need to shut down major intersections for a month ever few years to do track replacements. I dunno....

The problem with the "incredible streetcar architecture" is the compromises made to coexist with cars, such as the left hand turn lanes on St. Clair. On the other hand, some issues are institutional, like the choice of track switches and operational practices which mean every time a junction is passed, the cars must slow to walking speed. The bottom line however is that each streetcar carries 2-3 buses of load, and lasts 2-3 times as long in terms of expected service life. Where even partial priority is given to streetcars over cars, as in the King Street pilot, or the sporadic deployment of traffic control at intersections to mitigate box blocking, gains are seen.

 

[T3G]

The superior ride quality of a streetcar, even one with fixed trucks like a Flexity, must not be understated, either.

I had the misfortune of taking the 904 from STC to Don Mills the other day. It was an 11 year old Nova LFS Artic. For the 25 or so minutes that we were on the road, I don't think we went more than 5 seconds without the whole bus being rattled about worse than in the days of the GM New looks. It felt like riding through a war zone. The old Orions are pretty good riders for the most part (individual basket cases exempted), York Region's Van Hools even more so, but the Novas are an abominable product. In comparison, riding a streetcar feels like riding on a cloud, even if curves are much less pleasant to negiotate than they were in the days of the CLRVs.

 

[rdaner]

^Interesting! But of course there are many other effects of streetcars vs buses that should be kept in mind! Unintended consequences…

 

[hawc]

Are you the same person that posted this on the Toronto sub-reddit last week, suggesting that keeping the streetcars involved some sort of corruption?

Nope.

Like I said I love streetcars when I'm on them and I don't love 'em when I stuck behind one. I'm simply asking if it makes more economic sense to have buses. Sorry if that opens a can of worms. I have no dog in the race.

 

[hawc]

I agree with you that it's a dumb observation.

Lose the sarcasm. We can have a respectful back and forth without the silly sassiness.

 

[DSCToronto]

Lose the sarcasm. We can have a respectful back and forth without the silly sassiness.

I was agreeing with the first part of your post and contesting the second.

 

[smallspy]

I regularly drive St Clair eastbound from Keele, and my favourite game is “pace the streetcar”. Almost always it’s a case of wondering if the streetcar will catch up, as opposed to me trying to keep up with it.

On non-separated streets, not only is the bus easier to pass, but it’s easier for the bus to weave thru congestion. I much prefer to ride streetcars, but when it’s cold or wet, and I’m tired, the 501 bus that does arrive is a lot better to ride than the streetcar that doesn’t.

I’m glad we have streetcars in Toronto, but they are no magic solution.

- Paul

As a driver, a bus is always going to be better, as it can and will pull out of your way.

As a passenger, the streetcar is better as - weirdly as it seems - it's not fighting nearly as much to get into traffic. Contrary to perception, a bus running on the same route does require more time explicitly because it would be forced to wait to get back into the flow after stops.

So, who are we trying to serve then? The people in their autos, or the people on transit?

Dan

 

[Northern Light]

Here's a bit of a dumb observation, but it seems that streetcars require a huge amount of supporting infrastructure from the tracks all the way to the repair facilities. I know we all have a love affair with streetcars, but would buses make more economic sense?

No.

Here's why:

The capacity of a single flexity: 130

The capacity of a single bus: 51

The capacity of an articulated bus: 77

So you need roughly 2 Artics to replace a single streetcar as a starting point or 3 conventional buses.

This isn't just a vehicle cost thing, which would, on the surface, still be cheaper for the buses, even w/o factoring overhead and rail.

Its an operator thing. Each of those vehicles needs a driver, and labour is the biggest TTC cost.

So if you replace one vehicle with 2 or 3, you replace one operator with 2 or 3. That's a cost of ~110k or so between pay, payroll tax and benefits per year.

So, if you replace 264 Flexities with with 512 Articulated buses you're adding how many operators? More than you think, most vehicles are out more than 40 hours week. closer to 100 per vehicle for streetcars

So that's 264 x 1.5 (net new operators per shift) x 2.5 (shifts per week) or 990 additional operators required, not including staff required for vacations/spare board.........so you've just added at least 108.9M to the labour cost of the TTC, and it would be more than that, because with more vehicles and staff will come more supervisors, more managers, more mechanics and more overtime.

***

Coming back to the vehicle cost, the TTC is moving to a 12-year life cycle on the new Electric buses, while the Flexities are on a 30 year life cycle. So you have to replace each bus 2.5x over the life of one Flexity.

That ends up making the buses more expensive to buy (when considering the larger numbers of them) than the flexities they would replace.

***

Then there's the matter of storage, sure, you can store buses at existing streetcar sites, but you will now need charging infrastructure for the new electric vehicles, and you will need hoists, and to rip down the caternary and the overhead repair facilities and set up alternative wash and paint facilities plus re-tool.

***

All in, that's a lot of $$$$

 

[crs1026]

So, who are we trying to serve then? The people in their autos, or the people on transit?

Nobody said anything about autos. The question was bus versus streetcar. No question the bus will cost more, for the reasons mentioned.

A big part of the dilemma is that Toronto just isn't managing streetcars well, and their theoretical strengths don't play out in actuality.

The 501 bustitutions worked awfully well. Lots of buses, lots less waiting. Were they actually faster? Only TTC knows. Were the buses more costly ? Probably. But buy streetcars that you can't use, because some part of the street is always torn up....

I have had some pretty painful bus rides, sure. Jam packed Flexities that come after a ten minute wait aren't that great, either. Whichever comes soonest, and lets one get out of the cold and rain, and has a seat free, is the one most people will be happiest with.

The point being, cost isn't the only comparator. I can see streetcars losing their appeal (and cars being more popular) if we continue to run them badly.

- Paul

 

[just east of the creek]

Nobody said anything about autos. The question was bus versus streetcar. No question the bus will cost more, for the reasons mentioned.

A big part of the dilemma is that Toronto just isn't managing streetcars well, and their theoretical strengths don't play out in actuality.

The 501 bustitutions worked awfully well. Lots of buses, lots less waiting. Were they actually faster? Only TTC knows. Were the buses more costly ? Probably. But buy streetcars that you can't use, because some part of the street is always torn up....

I have had some pretty painful bus rides, sure. Jam packed Flexities that come after a ten minute wait aren't that great, either. Whichever comes soonest, and lets one get out of the cold and rain, and has a seat free, is the one most people will be happiest with.

The point being, cost isn't the only comparator. I can see streetcars losing their appeal (and cars being more popular) if we continue to run them badly.

- Paul

And if I can add, if the political consensus ever stepped up to the plate and enhanced streetcar transit with priorities at signalled intersections, and more separated right of ways, streetcars would also move faster, carry more people, have the ability to carry still further quantities (as capacity was added) and serve localized neighbourhoods at closer intervals then subways. In a city where further densification is going to continue. This is the way to go on many routes, complimenting subway and bus transit.

And as an aside, it is I interesting to read some of the news articles coming out on the positive effects of congestion charging in NY. I am sure it’s only a matter of time now, before Doug notices and declares that this is the way to go.

 

[hawc]

So on King Street they removed cares ENTIRELY and still streetcars are no faster. What's to blame there?

Feels like with streetcars it's always a game of "If only.... if only... if only...." but whatever they change nothing really improves.

 

[Jonny5]

So on King Street they removed cares ENTIRELY and still streetcars are no faster. What's to blame there?

Feels like with streetcars it's always a game of "If only.... if only... if only...." but whatever they change nothing really improves.

They didn't remove cars entirely though. There's still tons of traffic on King, especially between University and Yonge, a lot of that being the massive number of delivery and Rideshare vehicles clogging up the curb lanes and forcing merging in and out of the centre by through vehicles, and then there's the queues of cars making left turns at the end points, especially at Bathurst.

But as well documented, it was never about speed, it was about the variance in travel times. Gone are the days where your trip takes 10 minutes one day and the next day it takes 30 minutes, or there's a wild swing in the morning vs. the evening. That's ultimately what riders want. Even if it is 2 minutes longer now, that's nothing for riders to care about as what matters is that it takes the same amount of time every trip.