[micheal_can]

His track record of... cancelling a vapourware HSR project that had no funding behind it in favour of significantly more important projects? Like you're not actually out here claiming that Toronto-London HSR was more important and higher priority than say GO Expansion... right?

You know, you can do both at the same time, right? They could be seen as equally important. So,if that is the case, fund them both at the same time.

So basically this project now depends on whether we have an election in May or October.

No, this project depends on how it can be framed to the voters.

We don't need to assume the Conservatives are already the next government. We collectively have the ability to vote to ensure that doesn't happen.

The problem is, although on here we may not want them, out in the rest of the world, that sentiment is not the same. I will say it is almost certain PP will be PM. Whether that is a majority or minority government remains to be seen. I want to be proven wrong on this.

 

[ARG1]

You know, you can do both at the same time, right? They could be seen as equally important. So,if that is the case, fund them both at the same time.

Uh, no? No you can't? At least not necessarily? At the very least, there is no way for you to possibly know that. Frankly, if you thought about what you're saying here for more than 5m the reason why you're wrong should be quite obvious, but here we go:

1) There is a finite amount of capital dollars
2) There is a finite amount of construction workers
3) There is a finite amount of engineering hours
4) There is a finite amount of raw materials
5) There is a finite amount of production capacity for things like rail, signals, vehicles, etc.

As UrbanSky just explained, Ontario is easily the continent leader in terms of managing and building rail projects right now, and there is a high chance that we are literally maximizing our country's capacity to build railway projects right now. So unless you have some insider knowledge into railway logistics where you somehow just know that we have spare capacity around to undertake HIGH SPEED RAIL TO LONDON, there is no way you can possibly claim that we can fund, let along build them both at the same time.

And no, they're not equally important. High Speed Rail to London is nowhere near as important as anything we're building in Toronto right now.

 

[micheal_can]

Uh, no? No you can't? At least not necessarily? At the very least, there is no way for you to possibly know that. Frankly, if you thought about what you're saying here for more than 5m the reason why you're wrong should be quite obvious, but here we go:

1) There is a finite amount of capital dollars
2) There is a finite amount of construction workers
3) There is a finite amount of engineering hours
4) There is a finite amount of raw materials
5) There is a finite amount of production capacity for things like rail, signals, vehicles, etc.

As UrbanSky just explained, Ontario is easily the continent leader in terms of managing and building rail projects right now, and there is a high chance that we are literally maximizing our country's capacity to build railway projects right now. So unless you have some insider knowledge into railway logistics where you somehow just know that we have spare capacity around to undertake HIGH SPEED RAIL TO LONDON, there is no way you can possibly claim that we can fund, let along build them both at the same time.

And no, they're not equally important. High Speed Rail to London is nowhere near as important as anything we're building in Toronto right now.

So, with everything you just said, this debunks the theory on here that HSR should be a provincial project.

 

[ARG1]

So, with everything you just said, this debunks the theory on here that HSR should be a provincial project.

... Please, reread what I said, carefully, and actually put some thought into it.

If you still don't get it, please tell me how the feds running the project will address any of the issues other than financing? Manpower and production capabilities don't somehow suddenly appear because the feds are now in charge.

 

[micheal_can]

... Please, reread what I said, carefully, and actually put some thought into it.

If you still don't get it, please tell me how the feds running the project will address any of the issues other than financing? Manpower and production capabilities don't somehow suddenly appear because the feds are now in charge.

The manpower issue is a big challenge. However, they have the deeper pockets to finance it, which if I understood your post,the province does not.

 

[ARG1]

The manpower issue is a big challenge. However, they have the deeper pockets to finance it, which if I understood your post,the province does not.

Somehow you read all of those points, all of those factors that contribute to work not able to be parallelized, and somehow you arrive at the conclusion that funding is the major bottleneck. I am speechless, have a good rest of the day.

 

[micheal_can]

Somehow you read all of those points, all of those factors that contribute to work not able to be parallelized, and somehow you arrive at the conclusion that funding is the major bottleneck. I am speechless, have a good rest of the day.

No. I simply acknowledge it being a problem amongst others. So, unless we wait till no other projects are under construction to build it, it won't get built? If anything, manpower is the easiest to fix. That is because we no longer have one person doing everything from start to finish. So, once they are done at one site, they move to another site. For instance, the people digging the ground. There comes a point where no more digging is needed. So, they over to a new job site where digging is needed and they dig there.

Tome, the biggest challenge is funding it. That money needs to come from somewhere. TBH, no where has the funding available. Some levels can get access to it easier than others.

 

[crs1026]

The ignore button is your friend.

- Paul

 

[Urban Sky]

I feel constantly reminded here at Einstein‘s definition of insanity, even if he apparently never said it himself…

 

[crs1026]

I feel constantly reminded here at Einstein‘s definition of insanity, even if he apparently never said it himself…

I call it the "tequila shot" phenomenon. You learned the hard way, but here I am again....

- Paul

 

[afransen]

Claiming that Ford is anti-rail is rather wild considering that one of the main reasons which would inevitably derail the budget and timeframe of HxR is the fact that Ontario monopolizes a massive chunk of the specialized industry capabilities (for building large-scale rail infrastructure projects) not just nationwide but across the entire North America (while attracting many European and Asian experts and companies). Mention anyone in the industry that you are from Toronto and they will tell you how your province drives the entire industry…

I find this a little incredible (as in. not believable). Ontario is spending a lot per capita but not a lot in absolute terms on a global scale. Perhaps people know us as the biggest suckers than will pay any price to get projects advanced (a whale).

 

[Urban Sky]

I find this a little incredible (as in. not believable). Ontario is spending a lot per capita but not a lot in absolute terms on a global scale. Perhaps people know us as the biggest suckers than will pay any price to get projects advanced (a whale).

The only way to drive down costs is to encourage the industry to invest into increased capacity and capabilities locally and the only way to achieve this is a constant stream of projects. In North America, the GTHA is the only region in North America which gets this right and has been consistently (and even on a continental scale: massively) expanding their transit systems:

The striking thing about the GTHA is how these expansions almost dwarf the existing network:

• Extending 2 of the existing 3 Subway Lines: SSE and YNSE
• Building the first Light Metro line: Ontario Line
• Building the first three (!) LRT lines: Eglinton (incl. Western Extension), Finch, Hurontario
• More than doubling the train volume of the Commuter Rail network while electrifying most of it: RER/ONxpress

All of that is already funded and happening simultaneously…

Would construction be considerably cheaper if they had started this expansion spree earlier? For sure! But the only way to get unit costs down is to build the required Economies of Scale by following a comprehensive long-term investment strategy which allows the industry to plan sufficiently ahead to confidently make long-term investment decisions to increase their capabilities…

 

[roger1818]

Claiming that Ford is anti-rail is rather wild considering that one of the main reasons which would inevitably derail the budget and timeframe of HxR is the fact that Ontario monopolizes a massive chunk of the specialized industry capabilities (for building large-scale rail infrastructure projects) not just nationwide but across the entire North America (while attracting many European and Asian experts and companies). Mention anyone in the industry that you are from Toronto and they will tell you how your province drives the entire industry…

I don't think anyone is claiming that Ford is anti-rail, just that he is Toronto focused.

 

[micheal_can]

The only way to drive down costs is to encourage the industry to invest into increased capacity and capabilities locally and the only way to achieve this is a constant stream of projects. In North America, the GTHA is the only region in North America which gets this right and has been consistently (and even on a continental scale: massively) expanding their transit systems:

Having an assembly line line system where the type of work is planned so that the workers move from site to site without much dwell time is key in building long term capabilities.

I' don't think anyone is claiming that Ford is anti-rail, just that his is Toronto focused.

Toronto focused is correct. Yes, there are projects outside of the GTA, however, most of the projects are within the GTA. That isn't to say they are not needed, just saying that he, like most Premiers of the past focus on where the most seats are. Interesting though, the election after he said he would bring back the Northlander, the Timmins one flipped. I don't know if HSR would be enough to flip the non PC seats in Ottawa.

 

[Urban Sky]

I' don't think anyone is claiming that Ford is anti-rail, just that his is Toronto focused.

Doug Ford assumed office as Prime Minister of Ontario on June 29, 2018. O-Train Stage 2 (i.e., the city‘s largest expansion of its urban rail transit network) was approved on March 6, 2019, so almost 9 months (and certainly one provincial budget) later. Not sure how much funding the province has contributed, but Ottawa‘s urban rail transit network has been growing under Doug Ford‘s watch by an even more impressive rate than Toronto‘s…