Urban Sky
Senior Member
I don’t know about you, but for me the REM is rather the best example why infrastructure decisions massively affecting the transport links between this nation’s largest cities do not belong into provincial hands…
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- Thread starter kEiThZ
- Start date
nfitz
Superstar
50 years of high speed studies and nothing happening perhaps are the best example of why the provinces should be running this file.
micheal_can
Senior Member
You are assuming that the provinces would do a better job at it. To date we see nothing of that happening.
nfitz
Superstar
I really don't know why you bother replying here, given your complete ignorance on the subject.
There's been significant expansion of passenger rail by both the Ontario and Quebec governments in the last 50 years. During which time we've seen nothing but cut backs federally.
To date we see everything of that happening.
micheal_can
Senior Member
Commuter rail dos not compare to HSR. Neither does any transit projects.
In fact, they did expand GO To London and then cut it back. They also canceled the Northlander, and are bringing it back. These 2 things show that the province is no better than the federal government at passenger rail.
Going back 50 years, we saw expansions and cut backs of GO trains. We saw an under construction subway buried back in, only to redo it decades later. We have seen niche technology being used that flopped.
When I heard in one of the last provincial elections about HSR between Toronto and Kitchener,I laughed at it.
So, please, let's here what amazing job the province has done, because,frankly, I am at a loss.
Adjei
Senior Member
Exactly look how much transit we have under construction in Ontario. If Ford had been in charge of this file for the almost ten years it’s been talked about, it would have been under construction by now.
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nfitz
Superstar
Perhaps what HSR needs is a Prime Minister Ford.
ARG1
Senior Member
At the moment, there is also the Calgary-Banff HSR that's being pursued by the Albertan Government (it is a sort of private project, but its still being overseen by the province - not the feds).
It was a decision that could easily have been stopped by the Feds - who proceeded to do absolutely nothing about it. Stupid decision making is not something that only occurs at the provincial level, all you need to have good decision making is someone who has a good vision and is willing to execute on that vision.
To use the example of Alberta again, that's a province that has a solid foundation for a provincial rail network, and almost monthly we're getting new details of their various plans (just a few days ago they announced how the Airport Link will work in regards to the rail plans). Now I don't want to give Alberta too much credit since its one thing to study something, and its another to actually build it - but I would still argue that Alberta is way more likely to actually get stuff done, and the important projects like Calgary-Edmonton or Calgary-Banff done compared to the Feds and especially VIA.
Ontario is now developing a massive pipeline of projects to be executed and as bad as Metrolinx are, at the very least they're actually building stuff. VIA HFR as a concept is more or less as old as GO RER, and only one of these projects is actually happening atm.
ARG1
Senior Member
This would be a valid argument if VIA HxR was envisioned as HSR from the beginning. Fact of the matter is, the problem isn't that the Feds haven't started building HSR in the last 10 years, but rather that they spent the last 10 years trying to figure out whether or not it should even be HSR. Like I can't emphasize enough that HFR was announced in 2015, and we've seen nothing other than RFQs and RFPs tendered out in the last few years.
I have good reason to believe that we have not seen the last of GO to London. And as for the Northlander, at least we are bringing it back. When was the last time the Feds reintroduced a service they cancelled? The 80s?
Yes there were ups and downs, but the amount of Ups significantly outweigh the downs. I can count on one hand the amount of projects or services that were cancelled that never came back in some form - and they include things like GO to London, or the GO Bus service to Beaverton. The same cannot be said about VIA.
Since 2008, and especially since 2018, Ontario as a whole has done a really good job at build up transit. In the last 17 years, we built: 1 subway extension, 2 streetcar extensions (Cherry Street and Waterfront West to Exhibition), a new tram-train (KW), a new light metro (Confederation Line), rebuilt and expanded a regional rail line including a new airport shuttle (Trillium Line and Airport Shuttle), have significantly improved GO transit with the introduction of the 15m UP Express, hourly all day service on 3 GO lines, hourly weekend service on those same lines, expanded GO to Downtown Barrie, Kitchener, Niagara Falls, and West Harbour, and a ton of BRT and transitways in areas like York Region, Mississauga, and Ottawa. Under Construction: we have 3 new tram lines including a tram/subway hybrid, 2 extensions for the Confederation Line in Ottawa that will triple the line's length, 3 subway extension, 1 brand new subway line, GO electrification and infrastructure to support subway like frequencies, tons of new infill stations, and are bringing back rail service to Timmins with brand new refurbished stations and trains. To say Ontario is building the most amount of new transit infrastructure on the continent, whilst true, is frankly an understatement. We are building so much new transit and are basically leaving 2nd place in the dust. You can complain that we're not doing projects you specifically want (which knowing you means 5m headway trains to Sudbury), but Ontario really is doing an AMAZING job getting stuff built and funded.
Meanwhile what have the Feds done in that time? Cancelled Vancouver Island service? Got rid of Gaspe Service (which is coming back probably but still)? To their credit they did add extra corridor trains thanks to some strategic triple tracking, got new trains (finally), and made the Ocean have a stop at QC (yay?), but I think its completely fair to point out that not only is Ontario and the Feds not comparable, Ontario is in a completely different league from the Feds in terms of getting projects done.
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C_Johnson_1995
Active Member
This is absolutely the case. The Federal government has to balance so many competing interests, geographically and economically, that they are effectively paralyzed and lack any capability of delivering anything. People seem to be under the idea that the federal government has significant influence over most day to day issues, which is probably helped the "F Trudeau" crowd gained so much traction over the years.
I wonder if the answer may be to downsize the federal government and gradually wind down or transfer most of their activities besides those not tenable at a provincial level like foreign policy and defence. Though, in light of recent events, Canada is unlikely to survive another 10 years as a sovereign country, at least without significant territorial dismemberment.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
Regarding the change in government, may I remind people of clause 66. of the Conservative Party Policy Declaration:
Is that equal to a guarantee that they won't kill the project? No. But I do think it means we can at least be a little hopeful that this may survive a new government.
Is that equal to a guarantee that they won't kill the project? No. But I do think it means we can at least be a little hopeful that this may survive a new government.
guavadelic
Active Member
The delay def isn't a good look and would be a black eye internationally if Canada invited all these international consortiums just to toss the project aside due to political disfunction. I'd hate to see a Canadian paper having to write a version of this story in a couple years: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/09/us/california-high-speed-rail-politics.html. SNCF in particular would likely view North America as a lost cause when it comes to HSR after their experience with CAHSR.
Bordercollie
Senior Member
The concervative government will need to make huge cuts to balance the budget. Building high frequency rail is likely at the bottom of the list.
micheal_can
Senior Member
As much as I dislike him, he has done some good on the transportation front. It is the other stuff that would make me worry about him asPM.
Before HFR was introduced to us, HSR had been discussed over the last decades. The Turbo, from the 1960/70 was an early attempt at it. It is pre Via. It was CN.
There is no political capital to be had on rail at the federal level. That is more with the political climate than much else. The Northlander has been shut down for almost 15 years. So, should we expect GO to not go back for 15 years? Or, can we see how just like at the federal level, there needs to be the political will to do something. Currently, provincially, there is no political will in ON.
Via has been cut back almost to the lowest it can be without shutting down. If we use that same thinking GO Can be severely cut back and still be relevant. For instance, the shorter lines of Richmond Hill and Milton lines could be shut down. Even Stouffville could and still GO transit could exist. The Northlander could be shut down even before it starts up. All of these could hemp ON out of a financial hole if they needed something to pivot on.
When the money is pouring from the feds,it is senseless to not match it and get the most bang for buck. No different than if your work has a thing where you invest a dollar and they will match it, why would you not do it? If tomorrow they stopped, how many would also stop? This boom in transit construction since 2008 has been partly due to needing to create jobs during the Great Recession. With the risk of losing our biggest trading partner, and the biggest economic driver in the province, ON no longer has the funds to do anything with it.
The VI train is canceled because the bridges are unsafe. Much the same reason Gaspe was canceled. Tomorrow if that line was fixed, Via would return, much like Gaspe.Problem is, Via does not own either line. ON does not own any tracks in Eastern ON or Quebec. Via does Via could use the ROW they own to build something..
micheal_can
Senior Member
This is why I say it is not yet dead.The fact that where there base is located wants HSR too gives me hope that it is not dead.
Had this been early December,I would agree with you. In Early December, they were expected to have a super majority. They were projected to have more seats than any other government in Canada's history. With JT stepping down, that is not as certain. So, to win over certain areas and certain voters, he will need to placate them somehow if he wants a second term at being PM. It took Harper 8 years to balance the budget, and he did that by selling off stocks in companies we bailed out and by closing government offices, including Veterans Affairs. Cut childcare? Or Dental for seniors? or Insulin? There are no big ticket items to cut. And allowing a hockey team to have to walk to the arena in Toronto to face off the Leafs again will only be fodder for the left. I would hate to be a fiscal conservative these days as there are no low hanging fruit to cut that won't be missed.