News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 02, 2020
 10K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 42K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 6K     0 

I dunno, I feel we're spitting hairs here. It seems the difference between "too many brown people" versus "letting too many brown people in" when the result of the narrative are pretty much the same thing...

...and in the end, it's never about fixing the system so it's just and equal bringing about real, meaningful and proactive change. Instead it's about blaming our social issues of shortages and whatnot on easy targets of folks who make the establishment uncomfortable. When the establishment it's likely to blame. It usually is.

While I get we're not at the fevered pitch level of "they're eating our pets" yet, but there are always and have been steps that lead to that thinking. So this is why I will always have a degree of suspicion when this subjects comes up because it always seems to lead to the same thing. So you'll have to forgive me when I call that out. Sorry.

Fundamentally, we disagree here.

The problem to me is that you're conflating too many people and too many people of a particular demographic.

People who need housing vs available housing is just math.

Its not the fault of people we invited to come, it is the fault of the people who did the inviting when we didn't have the housing available.

Equally, when unemployment was acceptable, but there was no acute shortage of labour, inviting more workers suppresses wages for everyone, including those newcomers.

Once more, not the fault of those who came, but the fault of those who set policy.

That's not prejudice any which way, it is about government setting policy in a way that harms vulnerable people, both resident and newcomer and to a lesser, but real degree, the middle class too.

Its about favouring large corporations and a real estate ponzi scheme at the expense of average folks, both long-time residents and recent arrivals.
 
No need to crack open a points calculator - just go on certain subreddits and you can see everyone trying to game it openly. And the piece about the doctor from the US is enough to tell the other piece.

And yep, the overt racism against South Asians (or anyone brown in general) is getting to be an issue.

AoD
It always has been an issue. It's part of why I — a caucasian man descended from both east and west of the caucasus — left my medium-small hometown years ago in my early 20s. I saw so much racism there that I didn't see elsewhere (edit; outside of other small towns). When I was in high school (of ~1250 students), the number of visible minorities in my entire grade could be barely counted on two hands. I heard ethnic slurs on the school bus and school grounds regularly from kids of all age groups. If someone was going to insult someone else, it was almost always structured as "you aren't a [homophobic slur] [ethnic slur], are you?"

As immigrants really started moving into the town when I was a teen, the racism got less overt but darker in tone. The slurs began to get limited to more private company, but there were still overtones amongst the general population. There were places (ironically) you didn't want to be seen in by fellow townies; places to be avoided simply because a large number of a simple ethnic group lived there. Young kids knew Brampton was where the Indians and Pakistanis lived. Markham the Asians. North York the Jews. Even Vaughan would get you a side-eye because "that's where the Italians live". Comments about "why are we letting in so many immigrants?" were common things to be heard when parents got together.

This sounds like the 1950s, but I assure you it's far, far more recent than that..

The riding is one of the (both Federal and Provincial) conservative's GTA strongholds. It hasn't voted anything but Conservative provincially since the 80s, and federally since the early 90s (likely because the Reform party almost equally split the small-c-conservative vote there). I literally grew up with the son of one of the area's long-running incumbents.

One of the pivotal moments of my life was driving with a friend to Mississauga to go to Square One (aside; I miss Grey Region). For some reason he wanted to route through downtown Brampton along Queen Street to hit up the Taco Bell that was once at Queen & Kennedy. He saw some young Sikh men in turbans on the sidewalk, and quickly rolled down his window so he could ignorantly mimic a Zaghrouta towards them. I sat there in the passenger seat, embarrassed, feeling trapped, suddenly and fully made aware of all the aggressive and microaggressive racisms I'd seen or been ignorantly party to over the years. Whether it was disdain for Sikh police officers wearing turbans, or blaming someone's race for why a coffee order got messed up.

The driver is no longer a friend. He flunked out of his first year of Police Foundations post-secondary, and he's currently a prison guard at Maplehurst; if that tells you anything about the quality of human being he is.

Many of the people I grew up and am no longer friends with are now overt racists on Twitter/Facebook, and every last one of those are Convoy idiots. All (if they voted at all) voted PPC or Conservative. Most of my current friends from town smartly moved out years ago. I'm only friends-on-socials with a small handful of people still in the area. Of those, most will generally tend to brush off or excuse the racism of the others.

So, I don't think it has never *not* been an issue. I think the problem is over the years that the GTA outside of the big cities has grown to have more power in political circles, and that in turn has emboldened them.
 
Last edited:
Fundamentally, we disagree here.

The problem to me is that you're conflating too many people and too many people of a particular demographic.

People who need housing vs available housing is just math.

Its not the fault of people we invited to come, it is the fault of the people who did the inviting when we didn't have the housing available.

Equally, when unemployment was acceptable, but there was no acute shortage of labour, inviting more workers suppresses wages for everyone, including those newcomers.

Once more, not the fault of those who came, but the fault of those who set policy.

That's not prejudice any which way, it is about government setting policy in a way that harms vulnerable people, both resident and newcomer and to a lesser, but real degree, the middle class too.

Its about favouring large corporations and a real estate ponzi scheme at the expense of average folks, both long-time residents and recent arrivals.
And disagree we do. “They’re taking away our jobs, “ is always big red flag for me no matter how it’s parsed or argued. As well as, blaming housing shortages on immigration when said shortages are the result of government inaction to provide adequate housing for everyone which has little to do with immigration. And I could go on…

…but I think that would be exhausting for everyone. Nor would that really change anyone’s minds here including mine. So let’s fundamentally agree to disagree and move on. As an ole socialist curmudgeon like myself is unlikely to budge on this.

But thank you for your time on this. /bows
 
I think we need to be very careful about this issue - slowing down immigration to more sustainable levels is one thing that is easy to agree on, but some are clearly using the current state of affairs to justify exclusionary policies more in line with pre-war attitudes.

Also it is important to keep in mind that we always had immigrants doing jobs few locals wanted to do (building railways, construction workers, service workers). Nothing new there - the issue here is whether the level of exploitation apparent in gig work represent a legitimate and productive avenue of using immigrant labour - especially since they - unlike guest workers - will remain as citizens.

AoD

My parents from England were those immigrants in the early 70s. Dad worked in a factory. Mom worked in a grocery store. Both were union jobs making good money with benefits. My partner, his parents from India also came to Canada around the same time. They worked in hotels that were also unionized, which allowed them to save up for a house. Both my parents and his parents were home owners before the age of 30, while working middle class blue collard jobs.

My dads first factory job in the 70s was $7 an hour, adjusted for inflation that's 48 an hour! Not bad for a general labour . Back then there was so many jobs where someone without a college degree could provide a middle class living even on a single salary, unlike today.

immigrants today, are treated as disposable labour. pay way below union wage; work the hell out of them; pay no benefits; easily disposable no questions asked.. While CEO's make 400 times more than the lowest paid hourly employee.
 
immigrants today, are treated as disposable labour. pay way below union wage; work the hell out of them; pay no benefits; easily disposable no questions asked.. While CEO's make 400 times more than the lowest paid hourly employee.
400 times? Pffft. Only working 3 months last year, new Starbucks CEO Brian Niccol made 6666 times the median US Starbucks employee. Or roughly about 4300 times the average Canadian barista.

 
My parents from England were those immigrants in the early 70s. Dad worked in a factory. Mom worked in a grocery store. Both were union jobs making good money with benefits. My partner, his parents from India also came to Canada around the same time. They worked in hotels that were also unionized, which allowed them to save up for a house. Both my parents and his parents were home owners before the age of 30, while working middle class blue collard jobs.

My dads first factory job in the 70s was $7 an hour, adjusted for inflation that's 48 an hour! Not bad for a general labour . Back then there was so many jobs where someone without a college degree could provide a middle class living even on a single salary, unlike today.

immigrants today, are treated as disposable labour. pay way below union wage; work the hell out of them; pay no benefits; easily disposable no questions asked.. While CEO's make 400 times more than the lowest paid hourly employee.

Exactly - the issue isn't that we had immigrants doing work that no one wanted to do historically, but that the nature of work itself has changed and that these jobs no longer pay a living wage.
 
...but I digress, the thing here is that we should standing up to fascism first and not looking to blame others as a way of "preventing it". So this why I have to say no thank you to this kind of narrative. I am not going to throw segments of our society under the bus to prevent our society leading down there, because we will inevitably become that by doing so.

This is exactly what Frum pointed out. If people are fed up with the current immigration system and you keep telling the public that only the fascists care about immigration, guess who they'll elect? We saw this in the US. We're seeing this in Europe. There is only one left-leaning party that doesn't have an issue with the far-right making hay of immigration in Europe. And guess what they did?


I get there is a lot of corruption and unfairness to our (and their) current system. But as I have already indicated, the discussion has to be changing the system for the better. And not to appease fears, real, perceived and/or imagined by sacrificing others by doing so. But by encouraging our government to do the right things as opposed to doing things to get votes. And Third Way thinking should really be passé by now, IMO.

What was wrong with our previous point system that the Trudeau government had to create and/or massively expand alternative immigration (TFW) and residency (student to PGWP) pathways to that system? And next, why the hell did they not readjust when the abuses were getting obvious? It took them till 2024 to react. What kind of governance is that?

For me though the problem seems to be not of immigrants or immigration, but us.

The same public that didn't have a problem with immigration for decades is suddenly the problem? Sorry, I'd say the problem is the with the system and some of the current immigrants it brings in.
 
Pretty sure most workers have been told to report on Tuesday.

The letter carriers dont work on weekends
Canada Post became Purolator's majority owner in 1993 when it purchased a 75 per cent stake in the courier company for $24 million, Purolator posts profits while Canada Post suffers losses. Does not use Canada Post sorting facilities.

See https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/article/postal-workers-union-takes-aim-at-purolator-which-is-owned-by-canada-post/

Purolator’s locations in Canada and the U.S.
1760137994578.png

 
This is exactly what Frum pointed out. If people are fed up with the current immigration system and you keep telling the public that only the fascists care about immigration, guess who they'll elect? We saw this in the US. We're seeing this in Europe. There is only one left-leaning party that doesn't have an issue with the far-right making hay of immigration in Europe. And guess what they did?




What was wrong with our previous point system that the Trudeau government had to create and/or massively expand alternative immigration (TFW) and residency (student to PGWP) pathways to that system? And next, why the hell did they not readjust when the abuses were getting obvious? It took them till 2024 to react. What kind of governance is that?



The same public that didn't have a problem with immigration for decades is suddenly the problem? Sorry, I'd say the problem is the with the system and some of the current immigrants it brings in.
….as I said, you are not going to get me to agree to your views. And there is unlikely nothing I’ll say that you would agree to mine. Might as well move on as I stand by what I said. And there has been no convincing or compelling argument to change my mind here otherwise.

Also, please don’t link me paywalled articles from discredit news sources such as NYT or the WP. That’s just annoying. Thnkx!
 
Carney announces measures supporting low-income Canadians ahead of the upcoming budget.

1760157099563.png

The Liberal government will begin rolling out a long-awaited automatic tax filing system for low- income Canadians and make the national school food program permanent in advance of a federal budget that the prime minister is promising will lay the groundwork to support the country’s most vulnerable citizens.

Prime Minister Mark Carney announced the measures at a news conference Friday in his home riding of Nepean, Ont., where he also promised to extend the Canada Strong Pass over the holiday season and the summer of 2026.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/carney-school-food-automatic-tax-canada-strong-pass-9.6934474
 
….as I said, you are not going to get me to agree to your views. And there is unlikely nothing I’ll say that you would agree to mine. Might as well move on as I stand by what I said. And there has been no convincing or compelling argument to change my mind here otherwise.

Also, please don’t link me paywalled articles from discredit news sources such as NYT or the WP. That’s just annoying. Thnkx!
You can reject these views. As the all the evidence, including Canadian ones linked upthread, shows, the voters won't do that.

If the surge of the far-right everywhere from Japan to the US to Europe to here hasn't changed your mind, I don't know what will. Best of luck in getting others to agree, you'll need it!
 
Carney announces measures supporting low-income Canadians ahead of the upcoming budget.

View attachment 687356

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/carney-school-food-automatic-tax-canada-strong-pass-9.6934474

Just for clarity.

While the announcement is fine.

The Automatic Tax filing was a Trudeau Era announcement from the 2023 budget; also, the fine print here is that this will only apply to 1.5M Canadians in 2026, ramping up to 5M Canadians by 2029.

The School Lunch program is not getting any additional money in the near term; its merely that the current funding was due to expire in 2029. Carney has now committed to the program being permanent with some type of increase in funding likely in 4 years, if he's still the PM.

The Canada Strong Pass thing is fine, as far as it goes, the evidence from this year seems to be that it did aid in bolstering domestic tourism; though many Canadians (and others) are independently boycotting the U.S. which I suspect is the more influential factor.

****

Its all well and good, but mostly an announcement about nothing; and/or something we were supposed to have achieved already.
 
Last edited:

Back
Top