[AlvinofDiaspar]

While I agree that it is important to have all those soft skills that you have outlined, nothing precludes you from having all those talents while also having a background in a field relevant to the ministry you are heading. I do also realize that with the current parliament system we inherited, it makes it really challenging to find all that expertise within your party. First-past-the-post electoral system making things even worse in that regard. Personally, I would much rather have proportional representation system based on popular vote with political parties having a deep roster of various professionals for potential ministry appointees, so that voters know upfront what sort of government they are electing rather than voting for a party brand of a representative from their riding. But hey, one can only dream...

That's why one of the skills emphasized for bureaucrats is the ability to synthesize and distill expertise into (politically relevant) policy recommendations.

AoD

 

[Richard White]

Blair is probably second most loathed MND behind Sajjan from this government

Billy Boy Blair is my MP. He is as useful as a screen door on a submarine.

 

[kEiThZ]

...but nobody should be giving into backlash against immigrants, rather calling them out for the bigots they are. That would be common sense too.

David Frum had a phrase on immigration that is apt in the US, and is applicable to Canada in this moment: "If liberals won't enforce borders, fascists will."

Democrats turning immigration into a culture war is partly what contributed to Biden losing popularity in the US. Illegal crossings reached record levels in the US under Biden because he was constrained by the Democratic base from cracking down. And it's basically what has led to the destruction of the half century consensus on immigration in Canada. People are turning against immigration, because they don't perceive benefits from immigration any more. And they aren't wrong.

Let's be clear what happened here. The Trudeau government turned a world renowned immigration system that prioritized talent and integration potential (what the point system was based on) into a system that is closer to what we see in the Arab Gulf countries where low wage labour is exploited. At least the Qataris and Emiratis don't extract $20 000 in tuition from people going to work at fast food and retail stores before exploiting them. We love to pretend we're more virtuous, by giving 1 in 10 of them a pathway to residency. That way we can say, we aren't exactly like the exploitive Arabs. And what did we do all this? So that working class wages could be suppressed and real estate valuations maintained.

I don't get how anybody who professes to practice progressive values could condone this. But that's how much culture wars have cooked people's ability to think through issues dispassionately.

On the topic at hand, the backlash against H1Bs in the US is because that system is being substantially abused. Only this time instead of some kid pouring coffee, it's cheaper tech talent used to suppress wages in their tech sector. You are seeing angst in Canada from tech workers here who rightfully fear that an influx of cheap workers (not necessarily better talent) would do the same here. It's one thing to take an H1B who was working as a Data Scientist at a Mag 7 pulling in a quarter million US. It's another to simply bring in the H1B client manager from one of the body shop WITCH companies (Indian IT consultancies that run on wage arbitrage). When politicians start treating these two potential immigrants exactly the same way, that's bad news for working people. And as someone who genuinely wants Carney to succeed, I don't want him to make the same disastrous mistakes on immigration that Trudeau did.

 

[kEiThZ]

I think @kEiThZ is simply making the point that Canadians, writ large, don't want to see another population surge just at the moment, not from any ethnic group. If Canada poaches 100,000 top tier scientists, professors and grad students, no one will be unduly fussed. That's a rounding error in the county's population, especially true if the gains spread across multiple cities/regions.

Literally easier these days to move to Canada to work at Tims than to move here as a data scientist. Come here, do some crappy college program, work full time (should tell you how academically rigorous that program is), get post graduate work permit. And the more generic that crap college program the more your cheap labour will count as "Canadian experience" qualifying you to get permanent residency. On the other hand let's say you're an AI specialist who got a job at Google out of undergrad? You will not get enough points to qualify for permanent residency in Canada.

There's probably some here who won't believe me. Go play with the points calculators yourself.

It's absolutely ridiculous. Glad they are cutting back on students and TFWs. Still not close to going back to what we had before Trudeau's F' Up. And if there's a sleeper issue that could undermine Carney, I fear it's this one.

And as an immigrant, I absolutely fear how much the backlash against the lower quality immigrants is turning people racist. There's now open stories about how women on dating apps are writing "No Indians" on their profile. All of my relatives and friends report everything from micro-aggression to outright harassment. Especially in the GTA. I can see it in the way people react to me when they go from apprehensive to ease simply because they hear I don't have an accent. I fear for the impact on my kids, who didn't have to worry about any of this till now.

 

[Northern Light]

Literally easier these days to move to Canada to work at Tims than to move here as a data scientist. Come here, do some crappy college program, work full time (should tell you how academically rigorous that program is), get post graduate work permit. And the more generic that crap college program the more your cheap labour will count as "Canadian experience" qualifying you to get permanent residency. On the other hand let's say you're an AI specialist who got a job at Google out of undergrad? You will not get enough points to qualify for permanent residency in Canada.

There's probably some here who won't believe me. Go play with the points calculators yourself.

Not that you require affirmation, but I offer it. I've heard stories on and reported here on the case of a doctor whose actually here already, and working, with a case load, whose education is U.S., which we recognize, and yet we don't have doctors listed as a priority occupation currently, and he's shy on points because we won't count his work experience and he's over 45. (the age thing is understandable, to a point, but he's 49 and bringing 2 kids who he will pay to send to uni here. )

It's absolutely ridiculous. Glad they are cutting back on students and TFWs. Still not close to going back to what we had before Trudeau's F' Up. And if there's a sleeper issue that could undermine Carney, I fear it's this one.

Agreed.

And as an immigrant, I absolutely fear how much the backlash against the lower quality immigrants is turning people racist. There's now open stories about how women on dating apps are writing "No Indians" on their profile. All of my relatives and friends report everything from micro-aggression to outright harassment. Especially in the GTA. I can see it in the way people react to me when they go from apprehensive to ease simply because they hear I don't have an accent. I fear for the impact on my kids, who didn't have to worry about any of this till now.

I am disappointed to hear this. Obviously there is always some bigotry out there; but I hadn't noticed it becoming as acute as your describing (of course I wouldn't be the target, but I do pay attention to what's going on around me). I don't doubt what you're saying in the least though, different person, different surroundings etc. But that is certainly a concern if the bigotry is elevating in that way.

Some of that, I suspect is overflow Trump'ism where people feel a bit freer to let their bigotry show. That, of course, is not remotely ok, but at the same time, its less bad, in my mind that an increase in the actual number of bigots.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Literally easier these days to move to Canada to work at Tims than to move here as a data scientist. Come here, do some crappy college program, work full time (should tell you how academically rigorous that program is), get post graduate work permit. And the more generic that crap college program the more your cheap labour will count as "Canadian experience" qualifying you to get permanent residency. On the other hand let's say you're an AI specialist who got a job at Google out of undergrad? You will not get enough points to qualify for permanent residency in Canada.

There's probably some here who won't believe me. Go play with the points calculators yourself.

It's absolutely ridiculous. Glad they are cutting back on students and TFWs. Still not close to going back to what we had before Trudeau's F' Up. And if there's a sleeper issue that could undermine Carney, I fear it's this one.

And as an immigrant, I absolutely fear how much the backlash against the lower quality immigrants is turning people racist. There's now open stories about how women on dating apps are writing "No Indians" on their profile. All of my relatives and friends report everything from micro-aggression to outright harassment. Especially in the GTA. I can see it in the way people react to me when they go from apprehensive to ease simply because they hear I don't have an accent. I fear for the impact on my kids, who didn't have to worry about any of this till now.

No need to crack open a points calculator - just go on certain subreddits and you can see everyone trying to game it openly. And the piece about the doctor from the US is enough to tell the other piece.

And yep, the overt racism against South Asians (or anyone brown in general) is getting to be an issue.

AoD

 

[kEiThZ]

No need to crack open a points calculator - just go on certain subreddits and you can see everyone trying to game it openly. And the piece about the doctor from the US is enough to tell the other piece.

Insane. Call this kind of policy out and you get accused of being a racist who doesn't like immigrants. And then these same folks will be shocked when people simply stop listening to their lecturing and simply vote in openly anti-immigrant politicians.

And yep, the overt racism against South Asians (or anyone brown in general) is getting to be an issue.

Even worse. We don't just get it from other Canadians. A lot of these recent immigrants bring the worst of their cultures here. From caste discrimination to outright hostility towards other Indian ethnicities and minorities in India. My parents coming from a small minority in India (Christians) moved away to get away from these people. Only to now have a flood of them bringing those same practices over. Look up housing ads in Brampton where you'll see "Vegetarian only", long a coded phrase in India for Hindu only. Or see the recent debate on fireworks in Mississauga. A hated practice in India where basically you end up with fireworks going off anywhere and everywhere for every single occasion. But now you have folks wanting the same here and petitioning city council to allow it, because that's part of their religion (it's not). This stuff isn't coming over because we have more immigrants. It's coming over because the threshold for who can immigrate has dropped to the point where these people qualify.

 

[DirectionNorth]

Insane. Call this kind of policy out and you get accused of being a racist who doesn't like immigrants. And then these same folks will be shocked when people simply stop listening to their lecturing and simply vote in openly anti-immigrant politicians.

Even worse. We don't just get it from other Canadians. A lot of these recent immigrants bring the worst of their cultures here. From caste discrimination to outright hostility towards other Indian ethnicities and minorities in India. My parents coming from a small minority in India (Christians) moved away to get away from these people. Only to now have a flood of them bringing those same practices over. Look up housing ads in Brampton where you'll see "Vegetarian only", long a coded phrase in India for Hindu only. Or see the recent debate on fireworks in Mississauga. A hated practice in India where basically you end up with fireworks going off anywhere and everywhere for every single occasion. But now you have folks wanting the same here and petitioning city council to allow it, because that's part of their religion (it's not). This stuff isn't coming over because we have more immigrants. It's coming over because the threshold for who can immigrate has dropped to the point where these people qualify.

Not to mention the fact that immigrants face the same housing and employment competition pressures as everyone else. Actually, they have it worse, since they are competing in the same places (ethnic enclaves, job types) more than "old stock Canadians" without the connections. This is something that Democrats didn't understand and many progressive Canadians don't either.*


You're 100% correct. We turned one of the world's best immigration systems into something resembling a Gulf State. This will be the legacy of the Trudeau government, more than social programs or climate change or the carbon tax (LOL), crashing the immigration system and turning Canadians against it. Right when we could be stealing the US's leftovers too. Damn you, Marc Miller and Sean Fraser.

[source]

*Though I've never seen Canadians so united for anything. I personally know exactly zero people who support the immigration scheme now, sigh. I can't wait for this year's survey.

 

[kEiThZ]

I grew up in the UAE. I can see so many parallels between their exploitation of South Asian labourers and what we do here with students and TFWs. I thought I was crazy for thinking this. But I heard a recent Line podcast interview with a Globe and Mail columnist who just wrote a book on immigration. He made the exact same comparison.

On The Line: How Canada screwed up immigration, and how we can fix it

Globe and Mail columnist Tony Keller joins host Jen Gerson.

www.readtheline.ca

And I still don't get why we did all this. All so that Tims could be 50 cents cheaper? Or that the taxi for my burrito (Door Dash) would be a dollar cheaper? I am okay with fewer fast food joints and giving up Uber Eats if it means that housing becomes more affordable again for working families and we go back to getting more healthcare workers and engineers. What the heck were Trudeau et al thinking about at the time? What was their motivation for all this? I just want to know it wasn't a slightly faster and cheaper burrito taxi.

 

[Northern Light]

I grew up in the UAE. I can see so many parallels between their exploitation of South Asian labourers and what we do here with students and TFWs. I thought I was crazy for thinking this. But I heard a recent Line podcast interview with a Globe and Mail columnist who just wrote a book on immigration. He made the exact same comparison.

On The Line: How Canada screwed up immigration, and how we can fix it

Globe and Mail columnist Tony Keller joins host Jen Gerson.

www.readtheline.ca

And I still don't get why we did all this. All so that Tims could be 50 cents cheaper? Or that the taxi for my burrito (Door Dash) would be a dollar cheaper? I am okay with fewer fast food joints and giving up Uber Eats if it means that housing becomes more affordable again for working families and we go back to getting more healthcare workers and engineers. What the heck were Trudeau et al thinking about at the time? What was their motivation for all this? I just want to know it wasn't a slightly faster and cheaper burrito taxi.

I agree 100% with the sentiment above.

I then wish to add, I've been a regular poster of Tony's columns here, and have engaged him on this issue productively.

 

[picard102]

I thought we were dealing with the hypotheticals, not just discussing things they way they are. While ministers are rarely experts in their field, it doesn't mean that they shouldn't be. Personally, I don't see why we should be complacent with things the way they are and not even discuss things the way things ought to be.

Except there is no reason it "ought" to be other than what it is now.

One can only wonder what could have been had an actual education professional been put in that position though.

You think an Education minister who has a teaching degree is somehow going to put up a fight against their own government who's pushing these destructive policies?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I grew up in the UAE. I can see so many parallels between their exploitation of South Asian labourers and what we do here with students and TFWs. I thought I was crazy for thinking this. But I heard a recent Line podcast interview with a Globe and Mail columnist who just wrote a book on immigration. He made the exact same comparison.

On The Line: How Canada screwed up immigration, and how we can fix it

Globe and Mail columnist Tony Keller joins host Jen Gerson.

www.readtheline.ca

And I still don't get why we did all this. All so that Tims could be 50 cents cheaper? Or that the taxi for my burrito (Door Dash) would be a dollar cheaper? I am okay with fewer fast food joints and giving up Uber Eats if it means that housing becomes more affordable again for working families and we go back to getting more healthcare workers and engineers. What the heck were Trudeau et al thinking about at the time? What was their motivation for all this? I just want to know it wasn't a slightly faster and cheaper burrito taxi.

I think we need to be very careful about this issue - slowing down immigration to more sustainable levels is one thing that is easy to agree on, but some are clearly using the current state of affairs to justify exclusionary policies more in line with pre-war attitudes.

Also it is important to keep in mind that we always had immigrants doing jobs few locals wanted to do (building railways, construction workers, service workers). Nothing new there - the issue here is whether the level of exploitation apparent in gig work represent a legitimate and productive avenue of using immigrant labour - especially since they - unlike guest workers - will remain as citizens.

AoD

 

[kEiThZ]

I agree 100% with the sentiment above.

I then wish to add, I've been a regular poster of Tony's columns here, and have engaged him on this issue productively.

I am glad it's him talking about it. He's approached it in a compassionate way. And makes the case for fixing immigration. Better this than the racists.

 

[UtakataNoAnnex]

In Canada, I don't think you're seeing widespread backlash against immigrants, you're seeing widespread backlash against immigration, and more particularly, grossly excessive levels of same, predominantly, but not exclusively
in the form of students and TFWs.

I don't see any widespread blame of the people who came, its just more focused at the governments that made the policy.

Something that was among the key factors in the housing crisis and the doctor shortage, with population growth far exceeding the ability of the country to grow infrastructure and services.

Of course there are outright bigots, but I don't see them as driving the proverbial bus in Canada.

I think @kEiThZ is simply making the point that Canadians, writ large, don't want to see another population surge just at the moment, not from any ethnic group. If Canada poaches 100,000 top tier scientists, professors and grad students, no one will be unduly fussed. That's a rounding error in the county's population, especially true if the gains spread across multiple cities/regions.

But add a zero and enthusiasm may wane.

I dunno, I feel we're spitting hairs here. It seems the difference between "too many brown people" versus "letting too many brown people in" when the result of the narrative are pretty much the same thing...

...and in the end, it's never about fixing the system so it's just and equal bringing about real, meaningful and proactive change. Instead it's about blaming our social issues of shortages and whatnot on easy targets of folks who make the establishment uncomfortable. When the establishment it's likely to blame. It usually is.

While I get we're not at the fevered pitch level of "they're eating our pets" yet, but there are always and have been steps that lead to that thinking. So this is why I will always have a degree of suspicion when this subjects comes up because it always seems to lead to the same thing. So you'll have to forgive me when I call that out. Sorry.

 

[UtakataNoAnnex]

David Frum had a phrase on immigration that is apt in the US, and is applicable to Canada in this moment: "If liberals won't enforce borders, fascists will."

Democrats turning immigration into a culture war is partly what contributed to Biden losing popularity in the US. Illegal crossings reached record levels in the US under Biden because he was constrained by the Democratic base from cracking down. And it's basically what has led to the destruction of the half century consensus on immigration in Canada. People are turning against immigration, because they don't perceive benefits from immigration any more. And they aren't wrong.

Let's be clear what happened here. The Trudeau government turned a world renowned immigration system that prioritized talent and integration potential (what the point system was based on) into a system that is closer to what we see in the Arab Gulf countries where low wage labour is exploited. At least the Qataris and Emiratis don't extract $20 000 in tuition from people going to work at fast food and retail stores before exploiting them. We love to pretend we're more virtuous, by giving 1 in 10 of them a pathway to residency. That way we can say, we aren't exactly like the exploitive Arabs. And what did we do all this? So that working class wages could be suppressed and real estate valuations maintained.

I don't get how anybody who professes to practice progressive values could condone this. But that's how much culture wars have cooked people's ability to think through issues dispassionately.

On the topic at hand, the backlash against H1Bs in the US is because that system is being substantially abused. Only this time instead of some kid pouring coffee, it's cheaper tech talent used to suppress wages in their tech sector. You are seeing angst in Canada from tech workers here who rightfully fear that an influx of cheap workers (not necessarily better talent) would do the same here. It's one thing to take an H1B who was working as a Data Scientist at a Mag 7 pulling in a quarter million US. It's another to simply bring in the H1B client manager from one of the body shop WITCH companies (Indian IT consultancies that run on wage arbitrage). When politicians start treating these two potential immigrants exactly the same way, that's bad news for working people. And as someone who genuinely wants Carney to succeed, I don't want him to make the same disastrous mistakes on immigration that Trudeau did.

David Frum...the "Axis of Evil" guy... >.<

...but I digress, the thing here is that we should standing up to fascism first and not looking to blame others as a way of "preventing it". So this why I have to say no thank you to this kind of narrative. I am not going to throw segments of our society under the bus to prevent our society leading down there, because we will inevitably become that by doing so.

I get there is a lot of corruption and unfairness to our (and their) current system. But as I have already indicated, the discussion has to be changing the system for the better. And not to appease fears, real, perceived and/or imagined by sacrificing others by doing so. But by encouraging our government to do the right things as opposed to doing things to get votes. And Third Way thinking should really be passé by now, IMO.

For me though the problem seems to be not of immigrants or immigration, but us. And I'll likely leave that here....

...thanks explaining that though. /bows