[reaperexpress]

The airport is an odd case, that line didn't make much sense from a time perspective. But nobody took the bus to the airport anyway, so it's not really what people are grumbling about. Line 2 from Limebank is faster than the old 99 to downtown via Hurdman

I took the bus to the airport. In fact it's one of the only places I still take OC Transpo. The bus service is generally so unreliable that I walk, bike or drive everywhere else. None of those are practical for getting to the airport.

Are you sure the trip from Limebank is faster? It's 36 min on Line 2 plus 1-11 min transfer plus 6 min on Line 1. That's 43 to 53 minutes. When there was a direct bus Downtown via Hurdman I highly doubt it was anywhere near that long.

The main grumbling is reliability on line 1, it's improved but the trust isn't there. Basically anything less than 100% isn't good enough for people now that their trust is broken after.two derailments. There's also a fair number of slow zones, which is disappointing for a system that's a few years old

Reliability on Line 1 has been relatively okay past year or so, I think that's lingering from the terrible press a few years ago.

The slow zones are due to wheel-rail interface issues, not track degradation, so the age of the system is not related.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

For the slow zones I know it's for the wheel bearings and not age. What I meant is that you expect slow zones on a 50 year old subway like Toronto as maintenance crops up. But it's not something you expect on a new system.


As for travel times People in Riverside South often park and ride

The fastest travel time in the OC Transpo Travel planner on a weekday morning from Riverview station to Parliament station is 58 minutes assuming you make the connection immediately at Hurdman from the 99. The 99 travels a long way before it gets to the Transitway at HuntClub

The fastest travel time from Limebank station to Parliament is 46 minutes, but there's no park and ride so instead assume you park and ride at Bowesville, which is 44 minutes. So if you're a commuter there, your service is faster than before.

I'm a commuter from South Keys though, so in my case line 2 is officially about 2 minutes slower then going via Hurdman. But it's way more comfortable and it always shows up, unlike the 97/98 which show up randomly despite their scheduled frequency. So I always take the train the full way now on my own commute. It's especially the trip home that's more pleasant, the Hurdman train to bus connection sucks, and buses can sit at "1 minute away" on the screen for 10 minutes

 

[treplow]

Great! I know that there is a lot of grumbling about this system but it does seem to be connecting a lot of the right places. Airport, train, CBD, universities etc. I can’t think of another city in NA of this size that has a rail connection to the main airport.

Yes the coverage will be decent when all three phases are fully complete. There will still be some major missing areas like Bank St/The Glebe, Carling Ave, Vanier etc. Not to mention Gatineau, one of the largest employment and population centres in the region (I understand the political realities that make a direct rail connection challenging, but still).

 

[reaperexpress]

As for travel times People in Riverside South often park and ride

Only if they can afford a car. Many people live in Riverside South because they can't afford to live in the main city.

And going from fully transit trips (which was the case when the bus ran directly to downtown) to car+transit trips is a step backwards.

The fastest travel time in the OC Transpo Travel planner on a weekday morning from Riverview station to Parliament station is 58 minutes assuming you make the connection immediately at Hurdman from the 99. The 99 travels a long way before it gets to the Transitway at HuntClub

The fastest travel time from Limebank station to Parliament is 46 minutes, but there's no park and ride so instead assume you park and ride at Bowesville, which is 44 minutes. So if you're a commuter there, your service is faster than before.

I'm a commuter from South Keys though, so in my case line 2 is officially about 2 minutes slower then going via Hurdman. But it's way more comfortable and it always shows up, unlike the 97/98 which show up randomly despite their scheduled frequency. So I always take the train the full way now on my own commute. It's especially the trip home that's more pleasant, the Hurdman train to bus connection sucks, and buses can sit at "1 minute away" on the screen for 10 minutes

I'm not talking about 2024 vs 2025. I'm talking about 2015 vs 2025. Buses used to go directly to downtown without a transfer at Hurdman. People remember the Transitway system as it was before it got dismantled for LRT construction and that's why they're disappointed with the performance of the O-Train

 

[Kyle Campbell]

Only if they can afford a car. Many people live in Riverside South because they can't afford to live in the main city.

And going from fully transit trips (which was the case when the bus ran directly to downtown) to car+transit trips is a step backwards.

I'm not talking about 2024 vs 2025. I'm talking about 2015 vs 2025. Buses used to go directly to downtown without a transfer at Hurdman. People remember the Transitway system as it was before it got dismantled for LRT construction and that's why they're disappointed with the performance of the O-Train

The capacity just wasn't there. The bus lines along Albert/Slater were averaging 2km. I remember it could take 20 minutes of standing there watching your bus approach the stop at a glacial pace. Already by 2015 they forced bus-bus transfers at Hurdman for many routes because downtown was full.

For drivers also, the long lines of buses caused total gridlock for everything above Laurier. The heydey of the Transitway was the late 90s when it was still easy in both directions

That era of easy 1 seat rides is long gone, Ottawa is too big a city now. We used to not get traffic jams on the Queensway outside of rush hour either but the highway seems to get jams 7 days a week now, especially around Parkdale. Given another 20 years, it will be like Decarie in Montreal or the DVP in Toronto and will be clogged most of the time..There's always trade-offs with growth

 

[Kyle Campbell]

Yes the coverage will be decent when all three phases are fully complete. There will still be some major missing areas like Bank St/The Glebe, Carling Ave, Vanier etc. Not to mention Gatineau, one of the largest employment and population centres in the region (I understand the political realities that make a direct rail connection challenging, but still).

The Gatineau side will have the STO tram. Still to be seen is how seamless that connection will be. If they do build the tunnel under Sparks it will be pretty easy.. If they do Wellington not so much

 

[toaster29]

Only if they can afford a car. Many people live in Riverside South because they can't afford to live in the main city.

Car ownership as a measure of wealth or income is a myth that has been proven untrue. Look at Toronto, the highest rates of car ownership are in Rexdale and Malvern - also the poorest.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

Car ownership as a measure of wealth or income is a myth that has been proven untrue. Look at Toronto, the highest rates of car ownership are in Rexdale and Malvern - also the poorest.

As for Riverside south, you might choose to live there because housing is cheaper, but it's definitely extremely car oriented. Low income people without a car choose places like Heatherington or Carlington were transit is easier

 

[Sauga89]

For those not familiar with Ottawa, there was a plan I believe to extend Line 2 through Riverside South into Barrhaven, but I think they tossed that plan at some point. There's still a protected transit right-of-way I think, but it doesn't align well with the new Line 2 extension.

You can see the transit right of way at the bottom of this screen capture. It's that green line south of Earl Armstrong Road. The LRT extension is in the upper right-hand corner.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

For those not familiar with Ottawa, there was a plan I believe to extend Line 2 through Riverside South into Barrhaven, but I think they tossed that plan at some point. There's still a protected transit right-of-way I think, but it doesn't align well with the new Line 2 extension.

View attachment 631452

You can see the transit right of way at the bottom of this screen capture. It's that green line south of Earl Armstrong Road. The LRT extension is in the upper right-hand corner.

It actually loops.up to Line 2 in what's supposed to be a "downtown" for the community. It's now proposed to be BRT

Riverside South Secondary Plan – 2024 Update | City of Ottawa

ottawa.ca

 

[reaperexpress]

The capacity just wasn't there. The bus lines along Albert/Slater were averaging 2km. I remember it could take 20 minutes of standing there watching your bus approach the stop at a glacial pace. Already by 2015 they forced bus-bus transfers at Hurdman for many routes because downtown was full.

For drivers also, the long lines of buses caused total gridlock for everything above Laurier. The heydey of the Transitway was the late 90s when it was still easy in both directions

That era of easy 1 seat rides is long gone, Ottawa is too big a city now. We used to not get traffic jams on the Queensway outside of rush hour either but the highway seems to get jams 7 days a week now, especially around Parkdale. Given another 20 years, it will be like Decarie in Montreal or the DVP in Toronto and will be clogged most of the time..There's always trade-offs with growth

You are arguing against an argument I never made in the first place. I literally said in my earlier post that converting to rail was a good idea for capacity reasons.

 

[reaperexpress]

Car ownership as a measure of wealth or income is a myth that has been proven untrue. Look at Toronto, the highest rates of car ownership are in Rexdale and Malvern - also the poorest.

Are you denying the existence of all the people in Riverside South who don't own cars? There are a bunch of them in this video:

 

[Kyle Campbell]

You are arguing against an argument I never made in the first place. I literally said in my earlier post that converting to rail was a good idea for capacity reasons.

Not exactly, you said that it was poor design decisions, but good for capacity. Let's imagine they interlined at Bayview, or had converted the SE transitway instead.and interlined at Hurdman.

A train always stops at every station, and removing the transfer would save maybe 5 minutes tops over what we have today. You'd still have a transfer to the bus at the end. We weren't running buses every 5 min along Spratt, it was about every 15, same as today.

The moment we decided to switch to rail, the journey became slower compared to Express buses. There was nothing they could have built that would have changed that fact, and line 2 isn't as bad as people complain about. It could have been better, but not as magical as people think

Line 4 is a different matter, that's much worse than it could have been, but the city didn't plan to build it in the first place. The feds and the airport did that, and so it is what it is

 

[reaperexpress]

Not exactly, you said that it was poor design decisions, but good for capacity. Let's imagine they interlined at Bayview, or had converted the SE transitway instead.and interlined at Hurdman

A train always stops at every station, and removing the transfer would save maybe 5 minutes tops over what we have today. We weren't running buses every 5 min along Spratt, it was about every 15, same as today.

The moment we decided to switch to rail, the journey became slower compared to Express buses. There was nothing they could have built that would have changed that fact, and line 2 isn't as bad as people complain about.

Line 4 is a different matter, that's much worse than it could have been, but the city didn't plan to build it in the first place. The feds and the airport did that, and so it is what it is

Line 4 loses 7 minutes at South Keys due to the transfer, and Line 2 is 5 minutes slower today between Greenboro and Bayview than when it opened. Let alone what it could have been if it were upgraded. The line also only runs every 12 minutes, which is pathetic for a rapid transit service.

Basically across the board, the O Train system is several minutes slower than it would have been if we had invested a bit more in the infrastructure. In the case of lines 2 and 4, that luckily wouldn't involve undoing much of the work from the current upgrade, it would mostly be doing additional upgrades that were not included in the Phase 2 project, like a few more double track segments and electrification.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

Line 4 loses 7 minutes at South Keys due to the transfer, and Line 2 is 5 minutes slower today between Greenboro and Bayview than when it opened. Let alone what it could have been if it were upgraded. The line also only runs every 12 minutes, which is pathetic for a rapid transit service.

Basically across the board, the O Train system is several minutes slower than it would have been if we had invested a bit more in the infrastructure. In the case of lines 2 and 4, that luckily wouldn't involve undoing much of the work from the current upgrade, it would mostly be doing additional upgrades that were not included in the Phase 2 project, like a few more double track segments and electrification.

More double track, especially Walkley would improve things. I'm in agreement there.

Like I said, it could have been better, but it's not as bad as people think. Line 2 takes 32 minutes to travel the 15km between Bowesville and Bayview, which is about the exact same as Bloor subway takes to travel the 15km from Jane to Main Street. Granted it makes more than twice the number of stops . Line 1 without the slow zones would also move at typical subway speeds.

Ottawa has crossed a threshold in the past decade (along with Calgary and Edmonton) from mid size city along the lines of Winnipeg or Halifax to "big city junior" like Vancouver (though I would say Vancouver is close to graduating to a true big city now). We're getting more and more big city things, both good and bad. But we tend to be very negative about the things we get.