[micheal_can]

Cudda fooled me.

I dream of better, but I also live in reality.

 

[NorthernTracks]

Don't let your technicolour dreams get the better of you.


That was my take as well. An outside party drops something on your lap in the middle of a major project and you fight the urge to simply tell them sod off. Where was Beaverton (Georgina) when all of the public consultation was taking place? Trying to lay a guilt trip on the ONTC or government that 'we spent all this money and nobody is listening to us' is an amateur move.

If there is a 'Phase 2' there is no public document of it. I suspect there isn't at this point. Just getting 'phase 1' up and running has pretty much maxxed out ONR management. They have one trainset operating; Set #2 is in Toronto and apparently not in service, and Set #3 hasn't even arrived yet.

To be clear, I'm a fan of a stop on the east side of the lake as an alternative to Washago. I'm actually a proponent of Brechin. It's closer to Orillia/Barrie and already has a passing track. For any of the industry folks on here, would CN even entertain a mainline station in Beaverton?

That's just it though. Brock Township / Durham Region sent a letter petitioning for a station to the then Minister of Transportation dated April 2023 (many months before the public consultations took place in September, October and November of that year). The complaints raised by the community/ county are valid.

https://northerntracks.blog/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/letter-resumption-of-ontario-northland-rail-service-beaverton.pdf

https://www.reddit.com/r/NorthernTracksBlog/comments/1771r5s/consultations_ontario_northland_invites_you_to

 

[crs1026]

Most of the traffic to and from the ONR to the north originates and is destined for Toronto and points beyond - but not all of it. Some comes and goes east and west on OVR. The s/b ONR daily hits town in mid-late morning. The s/b CN daily bugs out in mid-late afternoon. As you say, there might be some efficiency in streamlining that turnaround but I don't think it will be as simple as a crew change and carry on. Any departure would have to line up with assigned slots on CN property.

I am guessing that ONR traffic, being resource based, is weighted towards loads out, empties in. It strikes me that North Bay has been a pretty convenient place for CN to hold loads that it doesn't want to inject into its network workflow just yet. And unless CN and ONR are stockpiling empties in North Bay, getting empties to customers further north will depend on what actually makes the northbound freight out of Toronto. There must be a lot of uncertainty and persuasion in the relationship. The ability to dump loads directly into Mac Yard, where CN can't ignore them, with ONR knowing what is where, seems like a big win for ONR.

Just speculation, but the railway business is really about control, and information flow.,

- Paul

PS - Suppose ONR finds that by virtue of the Northlander and its need for velocity, Ontario will be making virtually all of the ongoing investment in the line, plus some portion of fixed costs. Over time (ie 25+ years), the asset ends up being ONR's investment and not CN's. Everything CN bills for will have an "administrative fee" which will mark up the cost by potentially 20-25%. Ontario can borrow at maybe 5%. Buying the line may be a fiscal no-brainer once one decides that it's a line that is mission critical for the future.

 

[lenaitch]

That's just it though. Brock Township / Durham Region sent a letter petitioning for a station to the then Minister of Transportation dated April 2023 (many months before the public consultations took place in September, October and November of that year). The complaints raised by the community/ county are valid.

https://northerntracks.blog/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/letter-resumption-of-ontario-northland-rail-service-beaverton.pdf

https://www.reddit.com/r/NorthernTracksBlog/comments/1771r5s/consultations_ontario_northland_invites_you_to

I guess that's the paradox of consultation. You get to have input, for or against something, but the proponent isn't compelled to listen. Otherwise, ONR would be maintaining and staffing former CN station buildings, building actual structures instead of kiosks and extending the service on to Kapuskasing. It's easy to petition for something when you aren't paying for it. Maybe if they offered to put some skin in the game they might have had a better reception.

 

[smallspy]

As a historical note, the 2002 track speeds for the section of track you identified were 50-60 mph passenger speeds with restrictions in a couple of places to 45 mph. I would attribute the 45 mph restrictions to curvature and likely the best that can be achieved in those spots without moving the track. But certainly, the current slower zone speeds are the result of downgraded maintenance standards that could be reversed with some modest investment

- Paul

It's not just track geometry. It's also the track structure.

Because of the ground conditions in many places, lower speed limits historically were enforced in the warmer months, and higher speeds in the colder months - when the soil was frozen or at least solid enough to allow it.

Short of completely rebuilding the roadbed and track structure, those historical speeds are as good as we will ever get.

Dan

 

[micheal_can]

Just because, I took the Budd car round trip over the last few days. I was fortunate to talk to the crew. The interesting thing is, they do agree with Jim Belanger's stance that it should be extended to North Bay and Thunder Bay and it would be more viable. They did say some winter runs they do not have any passengers whatsoever. I don't know about you, but I have found that most Via crew are not just good at their job, but they seem to be passionate about the work they do and how we all view passenger rail service. The other thing is, they do not make excuses for what happens that is out of their control. It was a great trip.

And then one of the crew told me about a derailment that happened a few weeks ago.

 

[lenaitch]

They did say some winter runs they do not have any passengers whatsoever.

What does that tell you? I get that operating crews think more work would be a good thing, (at the very least, keeping the work that they have) but it is hard to see the logic of extending a train with no passengers for several hundred more kilometers. I'm sure any railroader can run a railroad, like any assembly line worker could run GM. Just ask them.

There are reasons why line employees don't inform corporate policy, including accountability, perspective ('the big picture') and skills. Did NCMs guide naval policy when you were in the RCN?

What the employees forget is their very employment is at the whim of Cabinet.

 

[micheal_can]

What does that tell you? I get that operating crews think more work would be a good thing, (at the very least, keeping the work that they have) but it is hard to see the logic of extending a train with no passengers for several hundred more kilometers. I'm sure any railroader can run a railroad, like any assembly line worker could run GM. Just ask them.

It does not tell me anything, but it does confirm what I already knew. I figured that could happen, but I wanted confirmation of that.
However, the number of fully empty of passenger trains could be reduced or eliminated if it were extended to North Bay and Thunder Bay. That area, the route serves passengers that mainly are there in the summer. They sometimes have a challenge fitting all the canoes or other things in the summer. They had an RDC 2 with the baggage. From Sudbury, we had about 10 people. On the way back we had 5. Come May Long, that will change.

There are reasons why line employees don't inform corporate policy, including accountability, perspective ('the big picture') and skills. Did NCMs guide naval policy when you were in the RCN?

You know all of those SA cases? You know all of those policy changes? That is because it was happening to NCMs. So, yes, NCMs did cause change Had Command listed earlier, it would not have made the news.

What the employees forget is their very employment is at the whim of Cabinet.

The way they were talking is not that they don't know that, but that they, like other workers, see missed opportunities where their employer could provide a better service and potentially make more money.

 

[lenaitch]

It does not tell me anything, but it does confirm what I already knew. I figured that could happen, but I wanted confirmation of that.
However, the number of fully empty of passenger trains could be reduced or eliminated if it were extended to North Bay and Thunder Bay. That area, the route serves passengers that mainly are there in the summer. They sometimes have a challenge fitting all the canoes or other things in the summer. They had an RDC 2 with the baggage. From Sudbury, we had about 10 people. On the way back we had 5. Come May Long, that will change.

Possibly, but 'could' is a poor basis for service planning. At least the returning Northlander has a business case. I would hope VIA/Cabinet would do the same (which they won't because they won't extend a remote service into non-remote territory). Pick your argument. An extended service would serve travel between the cities and communities, or it would serve backcountry residents and/or tourists. None of the trackage between White River and Thunder Bay, or between Sudbury and North Bay is anywhere close to remote from roads and highways.

You will argue 'it could be both'. Yes, I suppose it could. Write your MP. Maybe there is a business case for the handful of people who would use a train to go from Terrace Bay to Thunder Bay, or Sturgeon Falls to North Bay. It's only money. I'm surprised you didn't suggest diverting the train via the Soo, or should that be a separate train? It seems you are back to the 'trains to everywhere' book. I'm also surprised you haven't joined to SM crowd complaining that the Northlander won't go to Kapuskasing.

I would like to see Jazz return to North Bay; maybe the employees would too. Maybe you would like to see daily flights between Sudbury and Ottawa. None of that makes it sound business sense.

I got yakking with my propane delivery driver a couple of weeks ago. He had all sorts of views on how to run a large, distributed company. I worked with guys who had all sorts of ideas on how to run a large, deployed police service. Funny that none of them made it past Sergeant. Grassroots perspective is great, but limited.

You know all of those SA cases? You know all of those policy changes? That is because it was happening to NCMs. So, yes, NCMs did cause change Had Command listed earlier, it would not have made the news.

That's HR-related policy, or at least internal management-employee relations policy, not operating policy. Did you ask the crews how VIA treats them as employees? Responds to their needs ? I suspect fairly well since they are unionized.

 

[crs1026]

The way they were talking is not that they don't know that, but that they, like other workers, see missed opportunities where their employer could provide a better service and potentially make more money.

That's a reality for most businesses - the shop floor sees problems and opportunities, which management may not always notice or care to admit.

But that doesn't mean that the plant workers at Toyota know which potential car model will sell best, or how to design it, or even how to design the assembly line end to end. They may know lots of things that didn't work or could be made better, but can they package a proposal and attract the investment? And, even if they did and the idea doesn't work, will they personally eat the cost of the failure?

VIA has a fantastic front line workforce, and I am impressed that they remain engaged and positive given the environment they are in. But they don't have the broad line of sight to validate their aspirations from a business perspective.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

Possibly, but 'could' is a poor basis for service planning. At least the returning Northlander has a business case. I would hope VIA/Cabinet would do the same (which they won't because they won't extend a remote service into non-remote territory). Pick your argument. An extended service would serve travel between the cities and communities, or it would serve backcountry residents and/or tourists. None of the trackage between White River and Thunder Bay, or between Sudbury and North Bay is anywhere close to remote from roads and highways.

You will argue 'it could be both'. Yes, I suppose it could. Write your MP. Maybe there is a business case for the handful of people who would use a train to go from Terrace Bay to Thunder Bay, or Sturgeon Falls to North Bay. It's only money. I'm surprised you didn't suggest diverting the train via the Soo, or should that be a separate train? It seems you are back to the 'trains to everywhere' book. I'm also surprised you haven't joined to SM crowd complaining that the Northlander won't go to Kapuskasing.

I would like to see Jazz return to North Bay; maybe the employees would too. Maybe you would like to see daily flights between Sudbury and Ottawa. None of that makes it sound business sense.

I got yakking with my propane delivery driver a couple of weeks ago. He had all sorts of views on how to run a large, distributed company. I would with guys who had all sorts of ideas on how to run a large, deployed police service. Funny that none of them made it past Sergeant. Grassroots perspective is great, but limited.

Ironically, u MP happens to be Jim Belanger;the one who say that the line should be extended. I did contact him to ask for him to push for it.

As far as the extension,I do not expect it to be done without a business case. I would like to see a business case done before the new fleet arrives so that if it needs more coaches, or a sleeper, or whatever else, then those can be allocated.

That's HR-related policy, or at least internal management-employee relations policy, not operating policy. Did you ask the crews how VIA treats them as employees? Responds to their needs ? I suspect fairly well since they are unionized.

the CAF does not have an "HR"Department. All CAF polices are acts of parliament. So that change could really only happen with an act of parliament. Via has an HR department. It has a marketing department. It has departments that could take an idea and flesh\h it out. I am not saying every idea should be implemented, but some of them should be looked at.

 

[micheal_can]

That's a reality for most businesses - the shop floor sees problems and opportunities, which management may not always notice or care to admit.

But that doesn't mean that the plant workers at Toyota know which potential car model will sell best, or how to design it, or even how to design the assembly line end to end. They may know lots of things that didn't work or could be made better, but can they package a proposal and attract the investment? And, even if they did and the idea doesn't work, will they personally eat the cost of the failure?

VIA has a fantastic workforce, and I am impressed that they remain engaged and positive given the environment they are in. But they don't have the broad line of sight to validate their aspirations from a business perspective.

- Paul

Companies used to have a suggestion box where employees could suggest changes. In fact,I remember that my uncle who used to work at a Ford plant used to tell me that if someone came up with a way the company could save a penny on each vehicle, or they could come up with a way of shaving seconds from the assembly, the company may do it.

A simple thing Via could do to that could make them more profitable? Merchandise for sale on board. I know there may be issues, but that is why it should be listened to, looked into and then decided whether it is worth implementing.

 

[smallspy]

Ironically, u MP happens to be Jim Belanger;the one who say that the line should be extended. I did contact him to ask for him to push for it.

And what data does he have to support an extension, beyond "the feels"?

Of course being a member of a party not currently in power allows him far more leeway to say things that placate the constituency - seeing as how he has zero power to actually act on them.

Dan

 

[micheal_can]

And what data does he have to support an extension, beyond "the feels"?

Of course being a member of a party not currently in power allows him far more leeway to say things that placate the constituency - seeing as how he has zero power to actually act on them.

Dan

You know how we say that it takes an act of parliament to change Via? He could introduce a private members bill. He can create that act of parliament that you and I cannot.So,we shall see if it is just talk or if it is something that he acts on.

 

[NorthernTracks]

What's needed is a business case report for this specific corridor, similar to the one produced to the one for the Northlander. The challenges that hinder travel for residents North of North Bay, are very similar for those who travel to and from Thunder Bay (within Northern Ontario).

Thunder Bay and North Bay are not situated within MP Bélanger's riding of Sudbury East-Manitoulin-Nickel Belt.

Judging the potential ridership (Thunder Bay - North Bay) on the existing numbers along the Sudbury-White River route isn't fair. The train isn't designed to serve travelers beyond each terminus station (even though there are some like me who use the service for genuine travel purposes). There are no convenient transit connections, forcing some passengers to stay overnight.

Drivers who prefer to drive in these areas will continue to do so. Much like the Northlander, I believe the people who stand to benefit from extended rail service are those seeking medical treatments not available in their communities, seniors, post secondary students, and possibly remote workers.

A business case report would either validate or dismiss the points we keep hashing out amongst ourselves.