|
|
|
- Thread starter CDL.TO
- Start date
micheal_can
Senior Member
If a phase 2 exists, does it mean there will be more stops north of North Bay?
Or, could it mean that there would be stops south of North Bay but the train does not continue north?
Or could it mean that once they get to North Bay they head west towards Sudbury and maybe the Soo?
And what if the line is not popular enough to expand more than the initial run and times?
Or, could it mean that there would be stops south of North Bay but the train does not continue north?
Or could it mean that once they get to North Bay they head west towards Sudbury and maybe the Soo?
And what if the line is not popular enough to expand more than the initial run and times?
McGillicuddy
Active Member
When you're only hearing about "Phase 2" from proponents (rather than from anyone in a position to actually make it happen), one of two things is usually happening:
1. The proponents are branding their own proposals as "Phase 2".
2. In dealing with the proponent, some politician or bureaucrat has said "perhaps in a later phase" as a way of letting the proponent down lightly. The proponent is choosing to hear it differently.
1. The proponents are branding their own proposals as "Phase 2".
2. In dealing with the proponent, some politician or bureaucrat has said "perhaps in a later phase" as a way of letting the proponent down lightly. The proponent is choosing to hear it differently.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
Normally this would be my assumption as well, but in this case the confounding variable is that the Province recently spent $138 Million to purchase the Newmarket sub from Washago to North Bay. If they were just attempting a bare-minimum service restoration for political points, they wouldn't have done that. So it suggests that they actually intend for the Northlander to be financially viable in the long term.
Within that frame of mind, there's a good chance they intend to upgrade the track speeds there similar to how they upgraded the Temagami sub over the past couple years. The current speeds are very low, which severely limits the viability of a passenger rail service parallel to a 100-110 km/h highway.
If there were a 'phase 2' project, it would makes sense to piggyback on the Amtrak or Via long-distance fleet orders to get some sleeper coaches and matching economy coaches for the overnight service from Toronto to Timmins. That would surely attract additional passengers who'd be put off by the requirement to sit in a seat overnight. I'm sure Via would be happy to buy the Siemens sets to lengthen some of their consists.
If they are in fact planning to invest in the Washago-North Bay railway, it would make sense for them to then move some more trips from bus to rail to increase the benefits of that investment.
Beaverton could potentially be a site for an additional passing track to let CN trains meet ONR trains while the ONR train is loading passengers.
Last edited:
NorthernTracks
New Member
You can find it here. I received it a while back.
StreetcarRider
Active Member
From driving experiences, I always thought Beaverton made a lot of sense for a station in the long term, because the bad GTA traffic usually starts around there in busy times, and Beaverton is well-connected to neighbouring areas including the HWY35 corridor. For people in the area, the train could effectively be a traffic-skipping service. Plus, I have repeatedly heard that the long-term plan for HWY404 is to run it up to Beaverton, and it would be interesting to have a passenger rail investment there first.
crs1026
Superstar
lol I'm coughing a little over the suggestion that Ford's team is smarter than spending $135M just to get political points... but.... taking the high road, I agree that regardless of who is in power, the reinstated Northlander will have longevity that makes it worth discussing how ridership can be constructively grown to increase viability..
As a historical note, the 2002 track speeds for the section of track you identified were 50-60 mph passenger speeds with restrictions in a couple of places to 45 mph. I would attribute the 45 mph restrictions to curvature and likely the best that can be achieved in those spots without moving the track. But certainly, the current slower zone speeds are the result of downgraded maintenance standards that could be reversed with some modest investment
That's another price tag to swallow, but certainly for more modest money the service could be improved to a daily North Bay turn in addition to the through service to Timmins, CN willing. That choice of timings would make the service more attractive.
Beaverton would be an unlikely place for a freight-size siding due to the grade crossings in town. I would not want to see a passenger-only siding.... too much temptation for the average CN RTC to put the passenger in the hole to expedite a freight train that is still 20 minutes away. Better to rely on sufficient freight sidings, even with an oversize freight holding the main with the passenger taking siding while the freight saws by would be more efficient,
The one thing I did not see in that Durham power point pack was provision for a bus loop. One would hope that could be worked in. The suggestion that 20 parking slots would be sufficient gives some hint as to what the ridership gain might be.... meaningful but not edging towards GO Train potential. Not a bad place to put a stop.
- Paul
nfitz
Superstar
To keep an election promise? That government does seem to be keen to be able to say they kept their promises - more so than most we've elected in the last half-century or so.
Seems a pittance compared to the cost the city committed to to keep the promise about the SmartTrack stations.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
But that's the thing - buying the line is an awfully expensive way to buy very few political points, if any. The general public doesn't pay much attention to track ownership. When we've seen them throw money at trains to buy political points, we normally see a borderline-useless service implemented with zero infra investment, just to create a headline that they introduced a train service to a particular city. E.g. the original weekday Niagara service that required reversing into West Harbour, the London service that took over two hours just to get to Kitchener and departed London before London Transit starts service for the day, and the new Stratford service that includes a train meet with Via at Stratford station even though there's only one platform.
Thanks for that! My quick eyeball estimate was that the curves were good for about 50 mph, so 45 mph checks out. A zone speed of 50-60 mph makes sense given the relatively short distances between of 45mph curves. Either way it's a dramatic increase over the current 25 mph zones.
Yeah I tossed in the second NB-Toronto roundtrip because it filled out the schedule really nicely, but the more attainable target would be just one additional round NB-Toronto round trip.
I did indeed have a passenger siding in mind, not a freight siding. It's only 18km north of the new Zephyr East siding and 12km south of the Brechin siding, which is about a 12- to 20-minute travel time for a freight train. If trains are using the closest siding, the max delay should be 10 minutes, of which the ONR train would be sitting for a 2-3 minutes anyway to load passengers. I'm evidently more naïve when it comes to CN dispatching, but in my experience on the CN Kingston sub they do seem to make an effort to keep Via trains moving around CN freights. I have noticed several times where they halted or slowed a CN train to let a Via train overtake it. The same cannot be said about Metrolinx, who will not do even make the slightest adjustment to GO train operations to avoid Via delays.
I don't think the Beaverton siding is strictly necessary, it's just an idea for an infrastructure investment to offer CN in return for additional track slots.
Last edited:
nfitz
Superstar
I'd assume that was as a result of something that CN was up to. Like starting to consult stakeholders about abandoning the line, or significantly reducing maintenance/track speeds.
The masses wouldn't notice track sales much, but they would notice the service being cancelled the the tracks ripped up. Or even a public debate that would start after they formally applied for abandonment ... with then hyper media attention on the $ for the purchase. Instead the province flew this under the radar of the masses and media.
lenaitch
Senior Member
Don't let your technicolour dreams get the better of you.
That was my take as well. An outside party drops something on your lap in the middle of a major project and you fight the urge to simply tell them sod off. Where was Beaverton (Georgina) when all of the public consultation was taking place? Trying to lay a guilt trip on the ONTC or government that 'we spent all this money and nobody is listening to us' is an amateur move.
If there is a 'Phase 2' there is no public document of it. I suspect there isn't at this point. Just getting 'phase 1' up and running has pretty much maxxed out ONR management. They have one trainset operating; Set #2 is in Toronto and apparently not in service, and Set #3 hasn't even arrived yet.
To be clear, I'm a fan of a stop on the east side of the lake as an alternative to Washago. I'm actually a proponent of Brechin. It's closer to Orillia/Barrie and already has a passing track. For any of the industry folks on here, would CN even entertain a mainline station in Beaverton?
micheal_can
Senior Member
I am not. I am not expecting anything more than what happens for the first year as far as service. That includes, routes, stops, timing, speed, frequency, etc. So, unless something gets announced, nothing more is happening.
Northern Light
Superstar
A couple of notes on the Ontario purchase of the Newmarket sub, apologies for any duplication with the above posts ...
@reaperexpress @crs1026
***
Specifically mentioned in the press release from March is that this will simplify freight operations:
news.ontario.ca
From the above:
"In addition, it will streamline freight operations in North Bay, where freight trains were previously disassembled, transferred onto CN track and reassembled before continuing south."
That sounds to me like ONR will now run its own freights much further down the line, presumably only switching out w/CN/CP if running significantly south of Washago
Thoughts?
@reaperexpress @crs1026
***
Specifically mentioned in the press release from March is that this will simplify freight operations:
Ontario Newsroom
news.ontario.ca
From the above:
"In addition, it will streamline freight operations in North Bay, where freight trains were previously disassembled, transferred onto CN track and reassembled before continuing south."
That sounds to me like ONR will now run its own freights much further down the line, presumably only switching out w/CN/CP if running significantly south of Washago
Thoughts?
crs1026
Superstar
A couple of notes on the Ontario purchase of the Newmarket sub, apologies for any duplication with the above posts ...
@reaperexpress @crs1026
***
Specifically mentioned in the press release from March is that this will simplify freight operations:
Ontario Newsroom
From the above:
"In addition, it will streamline freight operations in North Bay, where freight trains were previously disassembled, transferred onto CN track and reassembled before continuing south."
That sounds to me like ONR will now run its own freights much further down the line, presumably only switching out w/CN/CP if running significantly south of Washago
Thoughts?
I suspect that as Ontario probed CN on its appetite for running the Northlander, it became apparent that CN had absolutely no interest in uograding the Newmarket Sub as anything more than a slow speed secondary or tertiary route. There would be little or no value added by raising velocity for the type of freight carried - CN can tolerate slow speed and likely gets the most value from the reliable arrival in Toronto (to make scheduled connections)..
Doubtless Ontario would have been faced with capital and ongoing maintenance costs for all the added work and carrying cost of the line, no doubt with a markup to benefit CN - so buying it outright (and thereby getting control of the operation) would likely have seen as the best option.
I’m not aware that the North Bay terminal is grossly inefficient, but perhaps there is room to streamline that aspect of the operation. Just being able to control the timing of the “interchange” may have had value.
The other thing I wonder about is how car supply is affected. Perhaps ONR will benefit from more control on car supply or differences in demurrage charges.
- Paul
Last edited:
lenaitch
Senior Member
Cudda fooled me.
The way I understand it (stand to be corrected) is that ONR freight crews will run right to the CN MacMillan Yard. There is very little on-line source/destination for traffic south of North Bay. CP doesn't come into it at all.
Most of the traffic to and from the ONR to the north originates and is destined for Toronto and points beyond - but not all of it. Some comes and goes east and west on OVR. The s/b ONR daily hits town in mid-late morning. The s/b CN daily bugs out in mid-late afternoon. As you say, there might be some efficiency in streamlining that turnaround but I don't think it will be as simple as a crew change and carry on. Any departure would have to line up with assigned slots on CN property.