[Bordercollie]

Mix a new product with the current trade mess and you get a recipe for disaster. I saw somewhere that the Northlander may not open till 2027. My wonder is whether this is the cause. I also wonder if they can operate it with one train and as the others come online they add frequency to where they want it.


I had heard that too, but with the talk of running rights and ownership it has me wondering if they own any part of it or any running rights, or, really anything. Since the 1990s when many lines changed hands and others were abandoned it is hard to clearly know the ownership of what is left that is not labeled CPKC and CN.

What was the ridership like on the Algoma train before it was cancelled?

 

[lenaitch]

I saw somewhere that the Northlander may not open till 2027. My wonder is whether this is the cause. I also wonder if they can operate it with one train and as the others come online they add frequency to where they want it.

The only thing I have heard, unofficially, is they won't run the service, even on a reduced basis, with less than two trainsets.

It seems their constant battle is trying to corral the government, who just want to make feel good announcements. The government is writing cheques the ONR has a hard time cashing. I guess if nothing else, the related contracts, like kiosks and stations, will be further along.

I had heard that too, but with the talk of running rights and ownership it has me wondering if they own any part of it or any running rights, or, really anything.

Well, the article says Watco bought it.

What was the ridership like on the Algoma train before it was cancelled?

The only thing I could find was this study which talked about 35-45 per trip in the early 2000s (SSM to Hearst scheduled train, not the canyon tour train). I suppose it's easier to carry a money losing train when the rest of the line has revenue, but with the loss of mine (Wawa 1998) and forestry (Dubreuilville 2008) most of the lines economy collapsed.

 

[micheal_can]

The only thing I have heard, unofficially, is they won't run the service, even on a reduced basis, with less than two trainsets.

It seems their constant battle is trying to corral the government, who just want to make feel good announcements. The government is writing cheques the ONR has a hard time cashing. I guess if nothing else, the related contracts, like kiosks and stations, will be further along.

Makes sense. If they can get it running before the winter storms start, that would still be seen as a win.

Well, the article says Watco bought it.

I saw that too. But, I also thought I saw that OVR owned their tracks to.

The only thing I could find was this study which talked about 35-45 per trip in the early 2000s (SSM to Hearst scheduled train, not the canyon tour train). I suppose it's easier to carry a money losing train when the rest of the line has revenue, but with the loss of mine (Wawa 1998) and forestry (Dubreuilville 2008) most of the lines economy collapsed.

What is missing is the understanding that that number is people with no real other option than float plane. I know there is a push for passenger rail there. I passed by Franz last week and the thru tracks have been cut, so that adds more complication to the return.

Gone 10 years, passenger rail could return if funding is put in place

The Algoma Central Railway passenger service was closed 10 years ago after the federal government ceased a $2.2-million annual subsidy to operate it. If a new replacement Bear Train is put into service, it will require closer to $7 million per year to operate

www.northernontariobusiness.com

 

[NorthernTracks]

What was the ridership like on the Algoma train before it was cancelled?

I have been unsuccessful at getting more detailed annual passenger on/off counts from Transport Canada on this route.

Here is the data I have for the former Algoma Central passenger service :

Agawa Canyon / Algoma Central

Train Information – Agawa Canyon+ Corridor: Sault-Ste-Marie to Agawa Canyon Service Provider: Watco Schedule (Seasonal) Train Information – Algoma Central+ Corridor: Sault-Ste-Marie to …

northerntracks.blog

The service was funded by Transport Canada to the tune of 2,5 million annually.

Briefly in 2023-2024, the Wawa OSB plant reopened, resulting in some new freight traffic along the rail line. The business was purchased by a US based company in 2024, and it appears the facility is once again mothballed.

 

[lenaitch]

What is missing is the understanding that that number is people with no real other option than float plane. I know there is a push for passenger rail there. I passed by Franz last week and the thru tracks have been cut, so that adds more complication to the return.

To be clear, the people with no other options other than float plane are tourist outfitters, not residents. In the 10 years since the train was cancelled, perhaps some have closed shop but the ones I remember seem to still be there.

Briefly in 2023-2024, the Wawa OSB plant reopened, resulting in some new freight traffic along the rail line. The business was purchased by a US based company in 2024, and it appears the facility is once again mothballed.

It's been a lot of things in its life. After the original OSB plant, it briefly became a wood pellet plant. More recently someone tried OSB again but it fell through and now LP Solutions (pre-finished exterior siding - very popular) apparently has it but I don't know if it is re-opened yet (Link is from 2023) or is even still a thing. Even at that, I'm not sure it would be rail-served. The line is in poor shape and Watco would have to be convinced that spending money on about 160 miles of track upgrades for a few trains a week is worth it. The plant is adjacent to Hwy 101.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/new-siding-plant-wawa-forest-industry-northern-ontario-1.6835685

 

[micheal_can]

To be clear, the people with no other options other than float plane are tourist outfitters, not residents. In the 10 years since the train was cancelled, perhaps some have closed shop but the ones I remember seem to still be there.

There is a GO train to Niagara Falls. I am guessing most of those are tourists, not residents.

TBH, of all the places I think has a business case to bring passenger service to, the line is one of the least likely in the province.

 

[lenaitch]

There is a GO train to Niagara Falls. I am guessing most of those are tourists, not residents.

Even you have to admit that is comparing a lot of apples with very few oranges.

 

[micheal_can]

Even you have to admit that is comparing a lot of apples with very few oranges.

Of all of the various rail routes in Northern ON, the Bear train is the one I feel has the least likely business case, and if it comes back it has nothing to do with the business case and all to do with the FN communities wanting it.

The real issue is anything outside the Corridor has completely different reasons for why they should be there, Try explaining to a Corridor crew or a GO crew that if they see some random person at the side of the tracks they must stop and pick them up. Their baggage may be bins of stuff, an atv, snow machine, canoe or even a full moose carcass. And, yes, there are baggage rates for all of those. If a GO or Corridor crew had to deal with any of that, well, they simply would say those are not permitted. That is because they are not permitted. Not so for a train like the Budd car or the 'future' Bear train. This isn't even apples to oranges. This is comparing a steak dinner to a single olive that is rolling on the floor. Some of us would accept that olive and enjoy it as though it is a steak dinner.

 

[NorthernTracks]

To be clear, the people with no other options other than float plane are tourist outfitters, not residents. In the 10 years since the train was cancelled, perhaps some have closed shop but the ones I remember seem to still be there.


It's been a lot of things in its life. After the original OSB plant, it briefly became a wood pellet plant. More recently someone tried OSB again but it fell through and now LP Solutions (pre-finished exterior siding - very popular) apparently has it but I don't know if it is re-opened yet (Link is from 2023) or is even still a thing. Even at that, I'm not sure it would be rail-served. The line is in poor shape and Watco would have to be convinced that spending money on about 160 miles of track upgrades for a few trains a week is worth it. The plant is adjacent to Hwy 101.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/new-siding-plant-wawa-forest-industry-northern-ontario-1.6835685

If I had to guess why Watco purchased the ACR, it was for the potential traffic that would be generated from the Ring of Fire. Sault-Ste-Marie was selected as the host site for the smelter. But there is documented resistance to the project.

Just a hunch, but I suspect Timmins isn't out of the running for the smelter project, considering all the investment made into the ONR's infrastructure and the recent acquisition of the Newmarket Subdivision.

Passenger service along the ACR is going to be a hard sell. Very few permanent settlements along a railway that surely has deteriorated in the last number years. The tourist demographic wouldn't typically be using the train during the off season, so I'd like to know who stands to purchase tickets should the Bear Train ever be restored.

I wish the group pushing for its return good luck.

 

[lenaitch]

Of all of the various rail routes in Northern ON, the Bear train is the one I feel has the least likely business case, and if it comes back it has nothing to do with the business case and all to do with the FN communities wanting it.

The real issue is anything outside the Corridor has completely different reasons for why they should be there, Try explaining to a Corridor crew or a GO crew that if they see some random person at the side of the tracks they must stop and pick them up. Their baggage may be bins of stuff, an atv, snow machine, canoe or even a full moose carcass. And, yes, there are baggage rates for all of those. If a GO or Corridor crew had to deal with any of that, well, they simply would say those are not permitted. That is because they are not permitted. Not so for a train like the Budd car or the 'future' Bear train. This isn't even apples to oranges. This is comparing a steak dinner to a single olive that is rolling on the floor. Some of us would accept that olive and enjoy it as though it is a steak dinner.

I've been seeing some posts from 'Lodge 88' (near mile 88 CPKC White River sub) with staff loading supplies in on the VIA Budd train. First guests this weekend.

If I had to guess why Watco purchased the ACR, it was for the potential traffic that would be generated from the Ring of Fire. Sault-Ste-Marie was selected as the host site for the smelter. But there is documented resistance to the project.

Just a hunch, but I suspect Timmins isn't out of the running for the smelter project, considering all the investment made into the ONR's infrastructure and the recent acquisition of the Newmarket Subdivision.

Passenger service along the ACR is going to be a hard sell. Very few permanent settlements along a railway that surely has deteriorated in the last number years. The tourist demographic wouldn't typically be using the train during the off season, so I'd like to know who stands to purchase tickets should the Bear Train ever be restored.

I wish the group pushing for its return good luck.

I tend to agree. The proposed Soo refinery has been getting a lot of pushback from south of the river; although I suspect there will be local opposition wherever it goes. Moving it to Timmins has merit (Kidd Creek meet site), but no port. Part of the discussion when cities were in the running said that they would have to relay the former CN Pagwa sub. It would be more direct but they could access Timmins via Oba. Money would have to be spent to upgrade ONR's Kap sub.

The RoF project has changed hands so many times, I think, as they said constantly during Covid, 'it's fluid situation'.

There are no settlements on the 'ACR' that doesn't have a road, of some sort. The FN group has been trying to get funding and an operator for years. Their latest proposal to run a train that terminates in the middle of the bush is just odd.

 

[micheal_can]

I've been seeing some posts from 'Lodge 88' (near mile 88 CPKC White River sub) with staff loading supplies in on the VIA Budd train. First guests this weekend.

They had supplies dropped off last week. The train makes it more affordable to run a business like this out there. Kinda like how businesses need freight carriers to be viable. On Vancouver Island, Top Feed in Duncan had stated that the loss of rail would devastate their business.

I tend to agree. The proposed Soo refinery has been getting a lot of pushback from south of the river; although I suspect there will be local opposition wherever it goes. Moving it to Timmins has merit (Kidd Creek meet site), but no port. Part of the discussion when cities were in the running said that they would have to relay the former CN Pagwa sub. It would be more direct but they could access Timmins via Oba. Money would have to be spent to upgrade ONR's Kap sub.

The RoF project has changed hands so many times, I think, as they said constantly during Covid, 'it's fluid situation'.

The RoF will be transformative if it ever gets developed. The issue is when. As far as where the ore will go, at this point, it is anyone's guess.

There are no settlements on the 'ACR' that doesn't have a road, of some sort. The FN group has been trying to get funding and an operator for years. Their latest proposal to run a train that terminates in the middle of the bush is just odd.

That is only due to a bridge that isn't safe and them accepting that it may not be fixed. I wouldn't doubt they want to go to Hearst, but the high cost of the bridge repairs make it even more impossible to return service to it.

I have wondered if that line would be any more possible if it did go to Hearst, and to Cochrane? Still a horrible business case, but now you at least have some population centers.

 

[NorthernTracks]

I've been seeing some posts from 'Lodge 88' (near mile 88 CPKC White River sub) with staff loading supplies in on the VIA Budd train. First guests this weekend.


I tend to agree. The proposed Soo refinery has been getting a lot of pushback from south of the river; although I suspect there will be local opposition wherever it goes. Moving it to Timmins has merit (Kidd Creek meet site), but no port. Part of the discussion when cities were in the running said that they would have to relay the former CN Pagwa sub. It would be more direct but they could access Timmins via Oba. Money would have to be spent to upgrade ONR's Kap sub.

The RoF project has changed hands so many times, I think, as they said constantly during Covid, 'it's fluid situation'.

There are no settlements on the 'ACR' that doesn't have a road, of some sort. The FN group has been trying to get funding and an operator for years. Their latest proposal to run a train that terminates in the middle of the bush is just odd.

I agree with your last point. It is an odd decision to terminate the train at Oba Lake (not to be confused with Oba the settlement).

I've often thought this would be an opportunity to reinvent the service. Aside from going westward at Franz though (to places along the North Shore of Lake Superior), I'm not sure how else you go about achieving this.

I would wager residents in Sault-Ste-Marie would prefer service to Sudbury (and by extension Toronto). But that's just as difficult of a sell due to the questionable future and state of the HCRY.

I would also wager residents of Hearst would prefer train service to Timmins and points south.

Either way you go about it, restoring any passenger rail service to SSM is a difficult proposition.

 

[micheal_can]

I agree with your last point. It is an odd decision to terminate the train at Oba Lake (not to be confused with Oba the settlement).

I've often thought this would be an opportunity to reinvent the service. Aside from going westward at Franz though (to places along the North Shore of Lake Superior), I'm not sure how else you go about achieving this.

I would wager residents in Sault-Ste-Marie would prefer service to Sudbury (and by extension Toronto). But that's just as difficult of a sell due to the questionable future and state of the HCRY.

I would also wager residents of Hearst would prefer train service to Timmins and points south.

Either way you go about it, restoring any passenger rail service to SSM is a difficult proposition.

We have talked about several routes that 'may' be worth having.

I am going to compare them to the gold standard of the Northlander to show their viability. I am going to list them according to what I think is the most viable compared to the Northlander

The Northlander:
Has communities and several small cities along its route.
Follows a major highway.
Anchored in a major destination for most along the route.
Multiple buses follow the route every day.
A concerted push to restore service has been around since it shut down.
The line is owned by the government of ON for most of it.

SSM - Sudbury - North Bay(Toronto)
Has communities and 3 of the 5 largest cities along the route.
Follows a a major highway.
Could be anchored in Toronto, which would be a major destination for most people along the route.
The bus situation is interesting. If we include the buses along 69, then you have multiple buses along some of the route a day. SSM - Sudbury only has one bus a day.
Not much of a push locally to get it.
The line is owned by either HCR/OVR/CPKC(?). However, they constantly since their inception do ask for provincial funding. These lines might get bought like the Newmarket sub was.

(Winnipeg)Thunder Bay - Sudbury - North Bay(Toronto)

Has the 2 largest communities of Northern ON on it.
Follows a major, mainly isolated highway.
Could be anchored in Winnipeg and Toronto which would be a major destination for those along the route.
Ignoring south/east of Sudbury, there is 1 bus a day, sort of. West of Thunder Bay it alternates between 11 and 17. There is the existing Budd service between Sudbury and White River.
There is a push by a local MP, albeit, one on the opposition.
This line west of Sudbury is owned by CPKC and has high congestion with freight.CPKC seems to not want to have passenger service on their line getting in their way.

Bear Train: SSM - Oba Lake(Hearst - Cochrane)

Has a major city at one end. On the existing proposal, there isn't anything to anchor it. This may make crewing it a challenge. due to rest requirements.
Doesn't really follow a highway and runs though very isolated areas with lack of road accessibility.
If built out to Cochrane, it may become useful for those traveling locally in the north, especially to Timmins.
There is currently only the Agawa Canyon Tour Train which does not accept any passengers not part of the tour.
There is a push by FN communities to put it in.
The line is owned by Wabco. The condition is poor beyond the area the Agawa Canyon Tour Train operates in. The crossing at Franz has been removed.

Some routes I have not added:

The Canadian
Via needs a mandate to add service.

Anything along the CPKC/CN route through Parry Sound.
Too congested to even consider it. Also a reason that the Canadian may never see more frequency.

Abandoned Ottawa Valley route
Not on anyone's radar and unless there was a push for freight service, not viable.

 

[lenaitch]

I agree with your last point. It is an odd decision to terminate the train at Oba Lake (not to be confused with Oba the settlement).

I've often thought this would be an opportunity to reinvent the service. Aside from going westward at Franz though (to places along the North Shore of Lake Superior), I'm not sure how else you go about achieving this.

I would wager residents in Sault-Ste-Marie would prefer service to Sudbury (and by extension Toronto). But that's just as difficult of a sell due to the questionable future and state of the HCRY.

I would also wager residents of Hearst would prefer train service to Timmins and points south.

Either way you go about it, restoring any passenger rail service to SSM is a difficult proposition.

I never really understood the foundation for passenger service between SSM and Hearst, other than the line dates back to days when railways simply provided the service and the route was otherwise fairly profitable, so the company could better absorb the costs. There has never been a nature connection, in terms of catchment, culture or economy between SSM and the Hearst area. The only tenuous connection was a lot of the families in Dubreuilville originated from or had family connections in the Hearst area, along with the simply commonality of both being French-Canadian.

 

[micheal_can]

I never really understood the foundation for passenger service between SSM and Hearst, other than the line dates back to days when railways simply provided the service and the route was otherwise fairly profitable, so the company could better absorb the costs. There has never been a nature connection, in terms of catchment, culture or economy between SSM and the Hearst area. The only tenuous connection was a lot of the families in Dubreuilville originated from or had family connections in the Hearst area, along with the simply commonality of both being French-Canadian.

It is akin to why would a highway heading north of Toronto need to be divided when there isn't a large city there. If you looked at the population, you might think that 6 lanes is more than enough. However, all anyone needs to do is stand where it goes from 1 highway of 6 lanes to 2 highways of 4 lanes on Monday to fully grasp what is the driver of the widening. It is not residents. It is tourism/vacation traffic. Just like the Budd car being mainly empty last week, starting this weekend it will be busy again, so to would this line see similar traffic patterns.