[crs1026]

There's no reason why a seat being used from Toronto to Beaverton can't also be used from Washago to North Bay, and again from Matheson to Timmins.

Dan

Totally agree, as I indicated that principle is sound…but…I would bet a box of donuts that the actual data would show more demand Tor-Bea than all of the other segments. Especially if one or more suburban developments appear on the east side of Lake Simcoe.
I am happy to discover that I’m wrong!

- Paul

 

[dowlingm]

Especially if one or more suburban developments appear on the east side of Lake Simcoe.
I am happy to discover that I’m wrong!

- Paul

What’s the current development situation for eastern Lake Simcoe - is it restricted like Uxbridge for utilities capacity or just a matter of zoning? In any case, Northlander’s schedule, unless the track is improved over time, isn’t really commuting focused in the morning. Maybe Beaverton think “first you get the platform, then you get a GO train, then you get the power (to inflate local property tax revenues)”

 

[roger1818]

Personally, I have a car but I've only once driven to the airport or the train station here in Ottawa. Every other time I've taken the bus or a taxi. One time I was dropped off but I've never been picked up. Twice I walked because the bus never showed up.

That really depends on your proximity to the station/airport. The fact that it was feasible for you to walk because the bus never showed up indicates that you must be reasonably close. I also live in the City of Ottawa and it would take 4 hr 40 min to walk the 20 km from the closest train station (and even further to YOW), with most of it along 80km/h highways that don't have sidewalks. While the bus would be possible, it is far from practical (about 90 minutes from either station or 2 hours from the airport, best case, for what is about a 30 minute drive) and a round trip taxi/uber costs more than parking for any trip less than about a week. This just to say that even in cities where transit and walking are reasonably accessible, a car is the best option for many, so in a small town where the transit and pedestrian infrastructure is significantly worse, most will be using a personal automobile to get to/from the station.

Don't forget that rural communities are usually much more "neighbourly" and someone who can't drive could easily find a friend, family member or neighbour who would happily bend over backwards to drop them off and/or pick them up, even in the middle of the night (a trait that is often lost on city folk).

Totally agree, as I i dicated that principle is sound…but…I would bet a box of donuts that the actual data would show more demand Tor-Bea than all of the other segments. Especially if one or more suburban developments appear on the east side of Lake Simcoe.
I am happy to discover that I’m wrong!

- Paul

I get what you are saying about not wanting to fill the trains with Tor-Bea passengers, not leaving any seats for northern residents wanting to go to/from TO, but here are two thoughts:

1. The schedule isn't great for commuters, so demand wouldn't be as high as if it was providing good commuter service, and
2. They can come up with a dynamic pricing model that tries to only sells Tor-Bea seats that would otherwise be empty. VIA does something similar by pricing seats on shorter distance segments the same as traveling end to end if they can't put another bum in the seat on the front/tail end of the trip. While it may not seem fair to price some Tor-Bea seats the same as Tor-Tim, if the train in only full between Tor-Bea, it makes financial sense, as it costs close to the same to run the train with or without a bum in the seat.

 

[lenaitch]

What’s the current development situation for eastern Lake Simcoe - is it restricted like Uxbridge for utilities capacity or just a matter of zoning? In any case, Northlander’s schedule, unless the track is improved over time, isn’t really commuting focused in the morning. Maybe Beaverton think “first you get the platform, then you get a GO train, then you get the power (to inflate local property tax revenues)”

Brock Township is in the Lake Simcoe watershed so distinct from the issues with Uxbridge and the York-Durham Sewer System. The entire township is about 12K population. No doubt infrastructure would be an issue facing development (it's always an issue), but I think it is outside of the GTA commuter-shed for now.

If they stick with the train times in the business case, it would pass through at roughly 0930 s/b and 2000 n/b. Not bad for some, but it's a single train per day and the s/b times will be subject to the vagaries of the previous nine hours.

There is no infrastructure, even old infrastructure, there. Other than Gormley (existing GO Station) and the new station in Timmins, every other station stop repeats the previous train and at least had a gravel or paved pad to plop a kiosk on and a space for parking. Beaverton would be a mainline stop on the Bala sub.

My only favour of Beaverton (actually I favoured Brechin) in lieu of Washago was it would still reasonably serve Orillia, be further from Gravenhurst and might be of some benefit to the Kawartha Lakes area.

 

[Bordercollie]

Why not start with morning GO buses to meet GO trains at Gormley from Beaverton. Let's see if you can fill those first.

 

[crs1026]

Why not start with morning GO buses to meet GO trains at Gormley from Beaverton. Let's see if you can fill those first.

Exactly.

After looking at the map for a bit, and looking at existing bus routes, I would have to conclude that public transportation up that way is a bit spotty. Beaverton has a very slow DRT bus to Whitby, while the more dense Lake Simcoe shoreline communities to the southwest (Keswick and Sutton - YRT) seem to connect to Newmarket. More direct connectivity to 2WAD GO from wherever the population may reside seems like a good idea.

Again, if the demand from Beaverton is truly just a few people wanting to get to Toronto or connect beyond, then nothing wrong with having it added as a stopping point for the train. But I still suspect that this would be the thin edge of the wedge leading to people seeing the train as how they want their transportation to grow. And in that respect, it's less compelling if Beaverton got a train where other local communities off the rail line get the nothing they have now.

Better connected and more intensive local bus up that way is the transportation solution. Stopping the train in Beaverton is doable, but just a wafer and not much of a meal for that district.

- Paul

 

[Bordercollie]

Brock Township is in the Lake Simcoe watershed so distinct from the issues with Uxbridge and the York-Durham Sewer System. The entire township is about 12K population. No doubt infrastructure would be an issue facing development (it's always an issue), but I think it is outside of the GTA commuter-shed for now.

If they stick with the train times in the business case, it would pass through at roughly 0930 s/b and 2000 n/b. Not bad for some, but it's a single train per day and the s/b times will be subject to the vagaries of the previous nine hours.

There is no infrastructure, even old infrastructure, there. Other than Gormley (existing GO Station) and the new station in Timmins, every other station stop repeats the previous train and at least had a gravel or paved pad to plop a kiosk on and a space for parking. Beaverton would be a mainline stop on the Bala sub.

My only favour of Beaverton (actually I favoured Brechin) in lieu of Washago was it would still reasonably serve Orillia, be further from Gravenhurst and might be of some benefit to the Kawartha Lakes area.

From Orillia you should have buses to meet trains in Barrie and Gormley. They would serve different customers on the way. And then the opposite in the evening

 

[lenaitch]

From Orillia you should have buses to meet trains in Barrie and Gormley. They would serve different customers on the way. And then the opposite in the evening

Fair enough, but that would be a GO Transit or Simcoe County Linx issue. The Northlander will not be a commuter train.

Quite frankly, I don't see Beaverton as a community of demand, any more than Washago is a community of demand. It is a somewhat centrally located access point for a catchment area. Washago is only 20-odd kilometers from the station stop in Gravenhurst. It is about the same to Orillia. Beaverton is about 37 km from Orillia but more accessible from points east.

 

[NorthernTracks]

Exactly.

After looking at the map for a bit, and looking at existing bus routes, I would have to conclude that public transportation up that way is a bit spotty. Beaverton has a very slow DRT bus to Whitby, while the more dense Lake Simcoe shoreline communities to the southwest (Keswick and Sutton - YRT) seem to connect to Newmarket. More direct connectivity to 2WAD GO from wherever the population may reside seems like a good idea.

Again, if the demand from Beaverton is truly just a few people wanting to get to Toronto or connect beyond, then nothing wrong with having it added as a stopping point for the train. But I still suspect that this would be the thin edge of the wedge leading to people seeing the train as how they want their transportation to grow. And in that respect, it's less compelling if Beaverton got a train where other local communities off the rail line get the nothing they have now.

Better connected and more intensive local bus up that way is the transportation solution. Stopping the train in Beaverton is doable, but just a wafer and not much of a meal for that district.

- Paul

The Northlander will stop at Langstaff and Gormley GO stations north of Toronto. Surely there's a way to balance the interests of travelers from Beaverton and area.

GO transit ended its bus service from Oshawa to Beaverton due to low demand a few years ago. There may not be a need for service 10-15 times daily, but a train (hopefully) once a day could be justified.

 

[crs1026]

The Northlander will stop at Langstaff and Gormley GO stations north of Toronto. Surely there's a way to balance the interests of travelers from Beaverton and area.

GO transit ended its bus service from Oshawa to Beaverton due to low demand a few years ago. There may not be a need for service 10-15 times daily, but a train (hopefully) once a day could be justified.

To put things in perspective, Beaverton has a population of 2,822 (per Wikipedia) while Central Frontenac has a population of 4,555. By that measure, the case for a passenger train stop in Sharbot Lake for VIA Alto exceeds that of the case for a stop in Beaverton.

I do worry about creating the expectation that this train is an early step in developing the east side of Lake Simcoe, but that prospect is a bit premature. It doesn't seem like a Beaverton stop would swamp the ridership of the Northlander, and its schedule is pretty amenable - however, better bus connections is all that's really justified.

- Paul

 

[dowlingm]

To put things in perspective, Beaverton has a population of 2,822 (per Wikipedia) while Central Frontenac has a population of 4,555. By that measure, the case for a passenger train stop in Sharbot Lake for VIA Alto exceeds that of the case for a stop in Beaverton.

I do worry about creating the expectation that this train is an early step in developing the east side of Lake Simcoe, but that prospect is a bit premature. It doesn't seem like a Beaverton stop would swamp the ridership of the Northlander, and its schedule is pretty amenable - however, better bus connections is all that's really justified.

- Paul

The Township of Brock estimates the population of Beaverton as 3,500 but the township itself including the other nearby towns as 12K.

 

[turbanplanner]

The Township of Brock estimates the population of Beaverton as 3,500 but the township itself including the other nearby towns as 12K.

TBF it'll take forever but DRT goes to Beaverton and will take you to the lakeshore east line. Someone in Frontenac isn't as fortunate

 

[dowlingm]

TBF it'll take forever but DRT goes to Beaverton and will take you to the lakeshore east line. Someone in Frontenac isn't as fortunate

Accepted. On the other hand while we don’t know the exact alignment/track speed at closest point to Sharbot Lake, it’s likely to be faster (and thus a higher deceleration/acceleration penalty) than a Northlander creeping through a bunch of closely spaced CN grade crossings…

 

[lenaitch]

The Township of Brock estimates the population of Beaverton as 3,500 but the township itself including the other nearby towns as 12K.

And Sharbot Lake is about 1400.

 

[Garuda]

With Kawarthas Lakes and the population centre of Lindsay next door. Have a stop for those in the catchment area to the east of Beaverton is a good option.

I know many people living in Lindsay who head into Toronto ending up driving to Oshawa Station. But even now with the heavy traffic it’s not an attractive option.