[lenaitch]

The fact that the arrivals and departures are outside of the normal span of service is not necessarily a problem since the routes serving the station would ideally be different than the normal routes anyway. The normal routes radiate from the downtown terminal but for the connecting buses we'd want one or two local routes radiating from the Porcupine station. It's a fairly large cost per bus trip but it's also worth noting that it's not just a train shuttle, it's also a crosstown trip that extends the operating hours of transit service in Timmins.

First, we don't know whether the City will extend its transit hours of service. If it does, it will be on the dime of the city taxpayers (plus whatever subsidies they get). Scheduling a bus to meet a a single 11 hour train that is supposed to arrive at 0510 would be dubious at best.

The scheduled times will be outside of transit hours by roughly 1 1/2 hours on both ends. It is not merely a matter of a driver showing up in the dark of the night and grabbing a bus. Extending service involves mechanics to sign out the vehicle, dispatchers, supervisors, etc. It also might involve collective agreements and have an impact on staffing due to duty hours. I don't even know if their transit is city-operated or a contract service.

Other than the train, it would be interesting to see if there is any other ridership at those hours.

The question is not whether many, or most, can access the service. It's whether the ability to access it is reasonable with respect to the AODA and other applicable legislation such as the Human Rights Code. This should be regarded as a new service and no grandfathering permitted. That said, I am not an expert in this so it may be that the law is written loosely enough that waiting 1hr+ at either end for a transit bus checks any needed boxes for a service branded as serving Timmins.

That is not even close to the intent of the legislation. Services themselves have to be compliant but wherever the service ends doesn't have to be at every doorstep. For that matter, Timmins Transit doesn't run up and down every street and stop and every driveway. They do have an on-demand para-transit but, again, operating hours. Is the TTC or GO non-compliant that they don't run 24/7 to every corner of their service areas?

Timmins airport is about 10 km north of town. Their transit doesn't run there, and it has 7-8 arrivals/departure per day.

 

[lenaitch]

View attachment 664994

I was out-and-about today and was held by the southbound ONR daily crossing the Hwy 11/17 bypass, I decided to go for a drive to check out this new bypass and saw that the s/b train had it to run out into CN territory. There are, I think, 2 tracks, a wye and a connecting track back to the ONR and this is where CN drops and makes-up its trains. It seems ONR is using this new bypass to access its own yard without having to go through their congested shop/refurb area.

 

[dowlingm]

Timmins airport is about 10 km north of town. Their transit doesn't run there, and it has 7-8 arrivals/departure per day.

The seeming obligation isn't on Timmins Transit though. It's on the province, whose project this is, and which is a new project which the airport, being operative since 1955, is not. The province can directly or via ONTC subvent TT to extend the route hours, run a shuttle using an ONTC bus, or do nothing and see if Timmins has a local David Lepofsky

 

[lenaitch]

The province can directly or via ONTC subvent TT to extend the route hours

I would like to know the mechanism to do that other than providing direct funding.

I wonder what would be considered a 'reasonable' location. Push through to Schumacher? All the way to the former station (including rebuilding the overpass which the city just tore down? Maybe all the way to the west end of the city so it is convenient to the folks who live out there?

The Ontario government has committed to providing passenger rail service to the City of Timmins. They (will) have done that.

If I recall, Lepofsky challenged the accessibility of the service provided; he didn't challenge the extent of the service.

 

[crs1026]

I was out-and-about today and was held by the southbound ONR daily crossing the Hwy 11/17 bypass, I decided to go for a drive to check out this new bypass and saw that the s/b train had it to run out into CN territory. There are, I think, 2 tracks, a wye and a connecting track back to the ONR and this is where CN drops and makes-up its trains. It seems ONR is using this new bypass to access its own yard without having to go through their congested shop/refurb area.

Historical trivia -

The track that we (and ONR, apparently) are calling the “bypass” was originally the CN transcontinental mainline between Ottawa and Capreol. Traditionally, southbound ONR trains did round the bend onto the CN line and did their work via those sidings on the east side of town, which also served as the interchange with CN for east-west traffic. If they had local work, they backed into the ONR yard around that wye. Northbound freights used the west exit from the ONR yard, making the yard operation somewhat unidirectional.
And southbound passenger trains rounded the bend and then backed up along the CN line, crossing the ONR, to the old station which CN and ONR shared. The signalling in North Bay was mostly attributable to the diamond and the complexity of those east-west moves. CN and ONR each had their own track at the station.
So getting the bypass back in service is helpful to freight operations as well as the restoration of the Northlander.

- Paul

 

[NorthernTracks]

For those who don't know, Northern College isn't far from where Porcupine Station is being constructed. This will be a practical location for post secondary students.

What I'd like to know is how this Timmins to Cochrane rail connection (as referenced in the UIBC) is supposed to work. Or for that matter, as I have pointed out in my columns, why Beaverton (a community expressing interest publicly in having a stop) is being bypassed by the future service.

 

[lenaitch]

For those who don't know, Northern College isn't far from where Porcupine Station is being constructed. This will be a practical location for post secondary students.

What I'd like to know is how this Timmins to Cochrane rail connection (as referenced in the UIBC) is supposed to work. Or for that matter, as I have pointed out in my columns, why Beaverton (a community expressing interest publicly in having a stop) is being bypassed by the future service.

I can't image the train times being of any regular use to students.

I haven't seen any official confirmation of the Timmins-Cochrane connection. I just assume it will be a revenue move of what would have been a repositioning move anyway.

I agree that Beaverton would have been a beneficial stop, likely as a replacement for Washago but here we are.

 

[NorthernTracks]

I can't image the train times being of any regular use to students.

I haven't seen any official confirmation of the Timmins-Cochrane connection. I just assume it will be a revenue move of what would have been a repositioning move anyway.

I agree that Beaverton would have been a beneficial stop, likely as a replacement for Washago but here we are.

This isn't going to be a commuter service like GO. In an area with limited intercity transportation, the train will be a great alternative to bus travel and more affordable than flights for those who travel home during the school year.

 

[crs1026]

I can't image the train times being of any regular use to students.

I have lost sight of how post secondary students commute these days - a lot more seem to have cars than previously, and air travel to the North has expanded greatly - but - my impression from past years is that the old Northland, even with an overnight trip, was pretty popular for students. I’m not sure why the Northlander would not regain some of that market, assuming reasonable pricing.
A student discount fare might actually be a good way to build ridership for the first couple of years.

- Paul

 

[dowlingm]

There is a vocal opinion out there that Northlander is for bringing northerners south and that collateral usages are unimportant - like Beaverton, or bringing southern students to Timmins - or somehow against the spirit or intent, like marketing GTA-Muskoka (because GTA has enough and doesn’t need what pittance the North is getting). I consider that view profoundly misguided for the purposes of a successful commercial enterprise - but this is a political enterprise…

 

[lenaitch]

This isn't going to be a commuter service like GO. In an area with limited intercity transportation, the train will be a great alternative to bus travel and more affordable than flights for those who travel home during the school year.

Agree. It may prove popular for student movements at Fall, Christmas and March breaks but certainly not for anything approaching a 'commute'. Community collages, particularly 'deployed' ones like Northern, tend to have a more local catchment area unless they have a particularly distinct program on offer.

Our daughter went to Nipissing in North Bay from the Midland area and I put her on the former Northlander at Washago a few times.

 

[Allandale25]

Historic Matheson train station saved from demolition

The plans have changed for the property to allow for the preservation of the century-old building and build a new accessible train platform

www.timminstoday.com

 

[NorthernTracks]

There is a vocal opinion out there that Northlander is for bringing northerners south and that collateral usages are unimportant - like Beaverton, or bringing southern students to Timmins - or somehow against the spirit or intent, like marketing GTA-Muskoka (because GTA has enough and doesn’t need what pittance the North is getting). I consider that view profoundly misguided for the purposes of a successful commercial enterprise - but this is a political enterprise…

I agree. It makes zero sense to ignore people and communities that actually want the service, regardless if they're in Northern or Central Ontario.

As I point out in some of my columns, the Township of Brock (which includes Beaverton) has made a formal request to the province for a stop. It would be the a station with the fourth largest catchment area according to this report.

There's no competing GO train, and the GO bus was removed from service. The community of Beaverton is situated on the railway that both the new Northlander and VIA Rail's existing Canadian trains use.

How does the government justify its decision to bypass this community about 100 km north of Toronto and about 40 km south of Washago?

 

[crs1026]

How does the government justify its decision to bypass this community about 100 km north of Toronto and about 40 km south of Washago?

In principle I agree….but…. There are competing considerations in your specific example.

The challenge for Beaverton is that every seat occupied by a resident for the 60ish miles out of Toronto is likely then hauled empty for 400ish miles to Timmins. That’s quite uneconomic.

And if a popular train service is established between Toronto and Beaverton, it becomes a lever for growth and development in a location where the urban planning may or may not support development.

I support building a platform at Beaverton so that residents can avail themselves of the train…. To reach North Bay and beyond. But to consider a train stop that accesses Toronto and beyond, we need to adopt a lens of GO Expansion and the best way to connect Beaverton to The GTA and regional transportation networks. That may lead to better GO service… but that GO service may remain a bus.

It would be tempting to offer a limited number of reserved seats or a premium fare, on the premise that in the short term the NL will have excess capacity anyways, so why not attract Beaverton riders. That sounds attractive - but it’s a slippery slope that creates a no-win political dilemma. It’s UP Express all over again. And how long before Beaverton residents demand a revision to the timetable to address their needs more fully?

So while I support the aggressive marketing of the Northlander to every possible sustainable market, I’m citing the Meatloaf line on this one…. Do anything for riders, but don’t do that.

- Paul

 

[smallspy]

In principle I agree….but…. There are competing considerations in your specific example.

The challenge for Beaverton is that every seat occupied by a resident for the 60ish miles out of Toronto is likely then hauled empty for 400ish miles to Timmins. That’s quite uneconomic.

And if a popular train service is established between Toronto and Beaverton, it becomes a lever for growth and development in a location where the urban planning may or may not support development.

I support building a platform at Beaverton so that residents can avail themselves of the train…. To reach North Bay and beyond. But to consider a train stop that accesses Toronto and beyond, we need to adopt a lens of GO Expansion and the best way to connect Beaverton to The GTA and regional transportation networks. That may lead to better GO service… but that GO service may remain a bus.

It would be tempting to offer a limited number of reserved seats or a premium fare, on the premise that in the short term the NL will have excess capacity anyways, so why not attract Beaverton riders. That sounds attractive - but it’s a slippery slope that creates a no-win political dilemma. It’s UP Express all over again. And how long before Beaverton residents demand a revision to the timetable to address their needs more fully?

So while I support the aggressive marketing of the Northlander to every possible sustainable market, I’m citing the Meatloaf line on this one…. Do anything for riders, but don’t do that.

- Paul

Hold on here....

The way you write this, you seem to make the implication that once a seat has had a bum in it, it can no longer hold any more bums until its destination. That is absolutely not the case.

If any such service only took into account end-to-end travel and made allowances for it, it would not last for very long. Shorter trips with passenger turnover will absolutely be necessary to make this a success.

There's no reason why a seat being used from Toronto to Beaverton can't also be used from Washago to North Bay, and again from Matheson to Timmins.

Dan