Admiral Beez
Superstar
I've done the Polar Bear Express from Cochrane to Moosonee. Once the Northland trains run from Union, what are good tourist extended long weekend trips?
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- Thread starter CDL.TO
- Start date
Krypto98
Active Member
They've been using this routing for the last month or so
roger1818
Senior Member
Did ONR buy this abandoned "bypass" from CN (or whoever the new land owner is) or did they just pay CN to restore it? RAC still shows it as being CN's, but they tend to not update changes until someone corrects them.
lenaitch
Senior Member
It was an ONR contract that restored it. Just going by signage on the ground, the CN property stops just south of the Old Callander Rd crossing. Prior to the bypass track, that's where the end-of-track bumper was located.
The RAC map also shows the majority of the yard trackage in the area as belonging to the OVR which is not correct
Urban Sky
Senior Member
A friend sent me these recent photos:
lenaitch
Senior Member
They have been working on the platform for a while. I don't know what shape it was in prior but, seeing as it was unused for over a decade it likely needed some TLC.
The signals have been dark for a while. As far as I know, ONR abandoned them (ABS?) years ago. There's nothin in the business case that specifically mentions signal upgrades.
crs1026
Superstar
Those signals are just hulks, left over from past decades.
It does beg the question, however, of how much throwing of switches by hand might be required to move the Northlander through North Bay. Hopefully none, but we shall see.
- Paul
lenaitch
Senior Member
Hard to say but I suspect a maximum of two; one coming off CN Newmarket sub and another to align the new bypass with the ONR Temagami sub. It's not like crews are that far away.
crs1026
Superstar
That's not a huge impact on the schedule, and the business case for signalling probably isn't there.... but one does wonder how much paperwork that creates. I wonder if the bypass is Rule 105 territory (ie first one there can proceed, user watch carefully) - not ideal for passenger service, TC might not be impressed....otherwise, does it take an additional OCS clearance just to use the bypass.
Plus, having the crew take time to sweep out those switches even a couple of times in the winter because the train got there before a foreman could... will affect timekeeping. Switch heaters and power switches have their uses...but this isn't that busy a track.
Probably something that just has to be.
- Paul
ShonTron
Moderator
North Bay used to be a much busier place, with both CN and CP passing through on their Western Canada–Montreal routes, along with two daily sorth-south passenger trains.
CN abandoned its track by the early 1990s, CP spun off its former mainline to a shortline, and ended up ripping out the track east of Mattawa in 2012.
So the signals aren’t the thing they used to be. Ontario Northland will tolerate conditions that VIA just wouldn’t.
micheal_can
Senior Member
Currently, trains use radioed clearance from the North Bay yard to Englehart and the Englehart to either Cochrane or some other intermediate location. With one freight a day each way at most, adding one passenger train a day each way won't impact things much, if at all. Wile they could refurbish the lights and activate them, there likely will not be the need for them.
As far as that new section, back when, they would need to slow to go through it, so the need to switch it won't slow them down enough to make a difference.
As far as that new section, back when, they would need to slow to go through it, so the need to switch it won't slow them down enough to make a difference.
smallspy
Senior Member
It's not VIA versus ONR that's the problem, it's TC.
They have explicitly said many times that they do not want passenger equipment operating in revenue service on anything other than signalized track for many years. The few lines that still operate that way are grandfathered in and despite TC's urging otherwise. And let's not forget that TC did force CN's, VIA's and G&W's hand to install signals on the Guelph Sub.
It will be very interesting to see if they try and insert themselves into the equation here at the last hour. They have been stunningly quiet about it so far.
Dan
lenaitch
Senior Member
Ontario Northland is not federally regulated (except its internal shortline Nipissing Central); although they do adopt aspects such as CROR and will have the TSB investigate an incident.
True, and I don't know how the interchanges were/are controlled, but ONR had signals along all or most of its trackage to manage traffic. ONR itself used to be busier as well with daily iron ore trains out of Adam and Sherman mines.
crs1026
Superstar
Down the rabbit hole I went.... based on 2006-2008 data (ie how it was back when the Northlander was still running)....
Going southward, ONR's Temagami Sub leaves OCS territory and enters "Cautionary Limits" at Mile 2.9, which is about 1.3 miles north of North Bay station. From MP 2.9 onwards, southward trains operated per Rule 94 - ie without written authority, on basically a visual basis, 15 mph top speed, "able to stop within half the range of vision of a track unit".
After leaving the station (MP 1.6 Temagami Sub), upon reaching Franklin St (MP 1.21) southbound trains may encounter switching moves from North Bay Yard using the Temagami Sub for headroom, again with trains watching out for each other on a visual sighting basis. As of 2008, there appears to be no specific instruction or measure preventing switching moves from coming north to Franklin St on the Northlander's time (although informally, there may have been an expectation to stay clear at times so as to not delay the passenger train).
The bypass switch is at MP 0.8 Temagami Sub, and was a manual switch. It's not clear whether this switch to the connecting track was normally left lined for the bypass. There was a short connecting track to reach the Bypass, which was the "CN Newmarket North Spur".
The switch from the connecting track to the CN Spur (MP 226.8 Newmarket Sub) was normally left lined towards the ONR, so no manual operation needed. Speed limit MP 226.8 to 225.2 - 10 mph. Speed limit MP 225.2 to 223.5 - 20 mph. Rule 105 territory.
CN Newmarket Sub proper began at MP 223.5, OCS clearance required to proceed south from there.
So - at most one switch needed to be lined for the Northlander, but very slow speed operation for about 6 miles through North Bay.
None of this may still be accurate, and CN and ONR may have made changes during the time the Northlander was not running, and may have planned changes again to speed things up. But absent new signalling, there is a zone thru North Bay where freight and passenger may both be present and will have to manually protect against each other. That's not really desirable by current TC standards, although as noted ONR may not be subject to TC's regulation.
- Paul
Going southward, ONR's Temagami Sub leaves OCS territory and enters "Cautionary Limits" at Mile 2.9, which is about 1.3 miles north of North Bay station. From MP 2.9 onwards, southward trains operated per Rule 94 - ie without written authority, on basically a visual basis, 15 mph top speed, "able to stop within half the range of vision of a track unit".
After leaving the station (MP 1.6 Temagami Sub), upon reaching Franklin St (MP 1.21) southbound trains may encounter switching moves from North Bay Yard using the Temagami Sub for headroom, again with trains watching out for each other on a visual sighting basis. As of 2008, there appears to be no specific instruction or measure preventing switching moves from coming north to Franklin St on the Northlander's time (although informally, there may have been an expectation to stay clear at times so as to not delay the passenger train).
The bypass switch is at MP 0.8 Temagami Sub, and was a manual switch. It's not clear whether this switch to the connecting track was normally left lined for the bypass. There was a short connecting track to reach the Bypass, which was the "CN Newmarket North Spur".
The switch from the connecting track to the CN Spur (MP 226.8 Newmarket Sub) was normally left lined towards the ONR, so no manual operation needed. Speed limit MP 226.8 to 225.2 - 10 mph. Speed limit MP 225.2 to 223.5 - 20 mph. Rule 105 territory.
CN Newmarket Sub proper began at MP 223.5, OCS clearance required to proceed south from there.
So - at most one switch needed to be lined for the Northlander, but very slow speed operation for about 6 miles through North Bay.
None of this may still be accurate, and CN and ONR may have made changes during the time the Northlander was not running, and may have planned changes again to speed things up. But absent new signalling, there is a zone thru North Bay where freight and passenger may both be present and will have to manually protect against each other. That's not really desirable by current TC standards, although as noted ONR may not be subject to TC's regulation.
- Paul
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lenaitch
Senior Member
The one mitigating factor may be train times. If they stick with the timetable in the Business Case, both Northlander excursions through North Bay will be 'off-peak' in terms of most yard activity (0545 sb and 2335 nb).