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- Thread starter drum118
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RU479
Active Member
T3G
Senior Member
I don't personally see this as a selling point at the frequencies at which GO electrification is proposed to run initially (15 minutes). Maybe if we were talking about reaching the 6-10 minute frequencies that have been discussed, but this comes with its own set of issues. I can't imagine 6-10 minute frequencies running out to Barrie, Kitchener, or London. Will there be sufficient capacities on the single deck EMU trains to accommodate inner city passengers as well as long distance travellers? It's important to keep in mind that a lot of these ideas are not yet funded, and given the volatile nature of Toronto transit planning I'm not sure it would be wise to put anything in stone. It is my understanding that the most recent promotional materials from Metrolinx have only advertised the 15 minute frequencies, and higher ones are a subject of debate and controversy. Hopefully we don't find ourselves in a situation where we've replaced our double deck coaching stock with single deck coaching stock, but find our service is inadequate and the train cars are no good for the amount of demand there is, while the BiLevels may have performed better. Better to have them, and not need them, than to need them, and not have them.
As for the added infield stations, none of them seem to be exceptionally close together.
Finch-Kennedy: between Agincourt and Miliken (distance of 4.3 km), distance to Miliken 2.4 km, distance to Agincourt 1.93 km
King-Liberty: between Union and Bloor (distance of 6.11 km), distance to Union 2.87 km, distance to Bloor 3.2 km
St Clair-Old Weston: between Mount Dennis and Bloor (distance of 4.55 km), distance to Mount Dennis 2.37, distance to Bloor 2.25 km
Bloor-Lansdowne: between proposed Caledonia and proposed Spadina-Front (distance of 9.34 km), distance to Spadina-Front 5.22 km, distance to Caledonia 4.12 km
As a comparison, here are some choice station to station segments on Paris' RER, which runs trains more frequently (every few minutes in the rush hour), and uses double deckers on many services.
Rosa Parks to Magenta: 2.1 km
Luxembourg to Port Royal: 800 m
Gare d'austerlitz - Bibliothéque F. Mitterand: 1.53 km
Avenue Foch - Av. Henri Martin: 754.71 m
Auber - Ch. de Gaulle Etoile: 2.5 km
Le Bourget - La Courneuve Aubervilliers: 3.1 km
It is true that Paris' stock has 3 doors on the side, which will decrease dwell times somewhat, but at proposed frequencies of 15 minutes, it is going to be extremely easy to pad the schedules to deal with the reality of our rolling stock.
As for the added infield stations, none of them seem to be exceptionally close together.
Finch-Kennedy: between Agincourt and Miliken (distance of 4.3 km), distance to Miliken 2.4 km, distance to Agincourt 1.93 km
King-Liberty: between Union and Bloor (distance of 6.11 km), distance to Union 2.87 km, distance to Bloor 3.2 km
St Clair-Old Weston: between Mount Dennis and Bloor (distance of 4.55 km), distance to Mount Dennis 2.37, distance to Bloor 2.25 km
Bloor-Lansdowne: between proposed Caledonia and proposed Spadina-Front (distance of 9.34 km), distance to Spadina-Front 5.22 km, distance to Caledonia 4.12 km
As a comparison, here are some choice station to station segments on Paris' RER, which runs trains more frequently (every few minutes in the rush hour), and uses double deckers on many services.
Rosa Parks to Magenta: 2.1 km
Luxembourg to Port Royal: 800 m
Gare d'austerlitz - Bibliothéque F. Mitterand: 1.53 km
Avenue Foch - Av. Henri Martin: 754.71 m
Auber - Ch. de Gaulle Etoile: 2.5 km
Le Bourget - La Courneuve Aubervilliers: 3.1 km
It is true that Paris' stock has 3 doors on the side, which will decrease dwell times somewhat, but at proposed frequencies of 15 minutes, it is going to be extremely easy to pad the schedules to deal with the reality of our rolling stock.
UD2
Active Member
It’s the difference between concentrated motor vs distributed motor operations.
Strict definition of a multiple unit is a fixed set-up of motor and trailer units capable of bi-direction operation. Even though it’s popular to categorize EMUs as distributed motor units with some self propelled carriages.
But just to poke fun at things I will category our future go train as the following. If you look at it, it not so different from the old Eurostars or TGV
MC - T - T - T - T - T - T - T - T - T - T - MC
Garuda
Active Member
Currently in Vancouver on vacation. the west cost express gets tables but GO doesn’t
Tables at 2-4 4 seat sections would be nice. Especially for the longer distance runs to Niagara Falls and London.
Allandale25
Senior Member
View attachment 418329
Currently in Vancouver on vacation. the west cost express gets tables but GO doesn’t
Tables at 2-4 4 seat sections would be nice. Especially for the longer distance runs to Niagara Falls and London.
GO had tables at one point I think.
SashaLemon
Active Member
I remember tables on the train to the falls. Unless I misremembered.
drum118
Superstar
I have been saying since 2007 that GO needs a number of different types of train sets as well the length of them.
My trip to Europe in 2010 reinforced my views and were reinforced again this year.
Every system I saw had both single and double deck trains that range from 2 cars to 20 cars. Most where duel ends with power at both end, power one end with cab car at the other end along with DMU's. Some trains were made up with 2-4 sets of 3 car EMU with power at each ends of the 3 cars set or 2 sets of 5 cars sets. High speed trains work this way as well, but that is another story. Even saw a single and DD cars part of one train with a locomotive at one end.
Some trains that were both single and double deck ran like GO current system as well with power at both ends. Mostly on 8-12 car trains.
We were forced to take other routes to get to are next place to visit as all trains were sold out on the day we were to travel weeks and months in advance in place of waiting 2-4 days for a train. What took place on these trains again reinforced the idea of one train becoming 2 or 3 trains going from A-Z as well another train hooking onto ours going to our station.
We left Copenhagen as one train and became 2 trains part way. My section carry on while the other section when elsewhere in the opposite direction before we departed. This new train became 2 more trains when we had to transfer to an RER train bound for Hamburg. The section we were on became a 2 car DMU going one way while the other 3 car became an EMU going in the opposite direction. The train was single level.
What got me was the fact that a gangway between cars were larger than normal and found out about 10 minutes before our transfer to an RER station why. That gangway became cab control ends that folded out from the side that were lock in place by the train conductor. As the train was to stop at the station, the conductor broke the connect between the 2 cabs and ended up 10 feet apart.
Haft way to Hamburg on the RER, our 5 car EMU took a bang at a station that indicated to me that another train just attached to ours. In Hamburg, we were a 10 car EMU DD train. Again, this train split in 2 with each going in opposite direction and not the only one I saw doing this. Joining trains together was done in route to free up access for more trains to the station at the same time.
Very common to see 2 trains on the same track at the same tome going in opposite direction as well arriving the same way. Something ML has looked at, but gone a different route these days. A few other systems were doing this as well.
If I look at a NF train, it could be duel power one end with 3 cars and attach to another train in Hamilton that would join an EMU in Burlington to become say a 12 cars or less to Toronto.
Sat at a number of tables on various systems that were 2 or 4 seats.
My trip to Europe in 2010 reinforced my views and were reinforced again this year.
Every system I saw had both single and double deck trains that range from 2 cars to 20 cars. Most where duel ends with power at both end, power one end with cab car at the other end along with DMU's. Some trains were made up with 2-4 sets of 3 car EMU with power at each ends of the 3 cars set or 2 sets of 5 cars sets. High speed trains work this way as well, but that is another story. Even saw a single and DD cars part of one train with a locomotive at one end.
Some trains that were both single and double deck ran like GO current system as well with power at both ends. Mostly on 8-12 car trains.
We were forced to take other routes to get to are next place to visit as all trains were sold out on the day we were to travel weeks and months in advance in place of waiting 2-4 days for a train. What took place on these trains again reinforced the idea of one train becoming 2 or 3 trains going from A-Z as well another train hooking onto ours going to our station.
We left Copenhagen as one train and became 2 trains part way. My section carry on while the other section when elsewhere in the opposite direction before we departed. This new train became 2 more trains when we had to transfer to an RER train bound for Hamburg. The section we were on became a 2 car DMU going one way while the other 3 car became an EMU going in the opposite direction. The train was single level.
What got me was the fact that a gangway between cars were larger than normal and found out about 10 minutes before our transfer to an RER station why. That gangway became cab control ends that folded out from the side that were lock in place by the train conductor. As the train was to stop at the station, the conductor broke the connect between the 2 cabs and ended up 10 feet apart.
Haft way to Hamburg on the RER, our 5 car EMU took a bang at a station that indicated to me that another train just attached to ours. In Hamburg, we were a 10 car EMU DD train. Again, this train split in 2 with each going in opposite direction and not the only one I saw doing this. Joining trains together was done in route to free up access for more trains to the station at the same time.
Very common to see 2 trains on the same track at the same tome going in opposite direction as well arriving the same way. Something ML has looked at, but gone a different route these days. A few other systems were doing this as well.
If I look at a NF train, it could be duel power one end with 3 cars and attach to another train in Hamilton that would join an EMU in Burlington to become say a 12 cars or less to Toronto.
Sat at a number of tables on various systems that were 2 or 4 seats.
SashaLemon
Active Member
Yeah exactly. I don't know why the people here are convinced that Metrolinx MUST operate only one kind of train or else. Phasing in EMUs as well as operating duel-mode locos with the existing bi-level cars is just so painfully obvious that I don't understand what the opposition to it is.
(It's foamers.)
APTA-2048
Senior Member
They did. They were removed for safety reasons after one of those collisions in California, I believe, showed they caused serious injury. A new table design was devised that is designed to deform and absorb the impact of the body in a collision. I’m actually surprised to see Vancouver still has the older style tables.
drum118
Superstar
Saw various of types of tables from foldup haft table that became a larger when a leaf was folded out for single seats to 4 seat. Them there was a table that was haft table that was attach to the wall for 2 seaters.
We over kill things based on a single cases or fail to understand the cause of the situations.
crs1026
Superstar
I'm sure that new designs are going to arrive. The issue is how fast, and how many.
The foamers are the ones who suggest replacing existing equipment before it's worn out, because they enjoyed a particular type of train in Europe or like the looks of what they see in on railpictures.net. Or have their own fantasy vision of what GO RER intends to become, which is bizarre because ML has not been all that specific with details of its actual vision.
I keep saying, the next generation of whatever is ordered will be determined by a spreadsheet exercise, involving a whole bunch of variables that we enthusiasts have no hard numbers about, and going well beyond what we can imagine or care about. Some variables may be obvious, some may be common sense, but some will demand a whole bunch of engineering data and a Net Present Value calculation.
- Paul
lenaitch
Senior Member
I wonder if they would still be practical for commuter service in our climate. Bulky coats, laptops, shoulder bags, purses that look like the owner is running away from home. I only vaguely recall them but don't recall a whole lot of 'tummy room'.
Krypto98
Active Member
Ahhh foamers... who don't understand much about what it takes to operate a railway
rbt
Senior Member
EMUs make sense for Metrolinx, but it's not Metrolinx that's making the decisions about rolling stock.
ONxpress is making that decision and they've got a 25 year contract starting 2023. Reality is, if they replaced rolling stock for the core lines, nearly all of it would be under 20 years old when their contract terminates as would any facilities created for their maintenance. I presume they will not receive an end-of-contract bonus from Metrolinx for leaving behind functioning rolling-stock.
A smaller number of general-purpose locomotives is cheaper to manufacture, and potentially resell if ONxpress retains ownership at the end of the contract.
If it was a 40 year operations/maintenance contract, ONxpress may have made different decisions.
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