[crs1026]

How would developing a new design even work with the heritage restrictions? Would you be able to complete an environmental assessment process before getting federal heritage approval? Or would you have to develop a preliminary design, get federal heritage approval, then do an EA, and then go back to the feds for heritage approval of any amendments from the EA? You are talking about adding years to the process, requiring more political will, and making it much more expensive, just to get to the same place.

I'm not sure that an EA would be needed. But certainly you would need a design. Generally, when property owners seek a change to a designated property, their designer retains whatever "heritage attributes" they can accommodate within affordability and technical considerations, while suggesting removal of attributes that get in the way. That's a lot easier when there is a single architect working with a single client....and the client is a private owner who knows what they want to achieve and can approve the design decisively.

The trainshed involves multiple owners and stakeholders, and they are public entities whose decisionmaking is more complicated. And, each stakeholder has its own functionality requirements.... the design would have to ensure that GO, VIA, the City, and possibly other tenants get the space and functionality they need. It's the complexity of the use of the building and the politics of each.... and not the heritage process...., that would makes this project complicated.

Even if the heritage protection were removed and the trainshed demolished on Day One, herding all those cats towards a replacement design is the hard part. And agreeing on who would pay for what.... the heritage discussion would be limited to considering whether some elements could be retained, and if so how much is necessary.

I have issues with all those examples. But those are examples of the province overruling municipalities whereas this would be the federal government stepping out of the way of the province and city. Also, litigation may happen regardless, but it would be much less likely to succeed with a change to the federal law.

Sidestepping due process is always appealing to the interested party that just wants to get on with something. And one person's "red tape" is another person's protection of legitimate interests and search for compromise. A design that retains what it can is preferable to razing a structure.... just as working out a vegetation protection plan that preserves mature trees is preferable to clearcutting a construction site - time and effort well spent.

Just because we agree the trainshed needs to go does not mean we should shed all the approvals that go into every design. Heritage protection is not what slows projects....alterations to protected properties happen all the time. Dealing with structural issues, utilities, materials, code compliance, etc is still what consumes time for the architects and engineers on heritage protected projects.

For the trainshed, I expect the underlying depot structure, especially the placement of the load bearing columns and the constraints on placing and spacing the platforms, would put a lot of limitations on the design. We can't just plop a new trainshed on top as if it's being built on clear land.

And, first we have to agree on the new design.

- Paul

 

[ARG1]

The discussion in the GO Service thread is that most lines won't receive 15-minute service - at least until the late 2030s. Or electrification.

If you're referring to the image that I think you are, its important to remember that that image isn't meant to be some authoritative look into what transit will look like in the next 10 years, and is more of an internally distributed "What if" document that kind of assumes the worst case scenario in terms of GO Expansion funding, as in, the government literally cuts off any and all funding to GO Expansion tomorrow, and Metrolinx needs to figure out how to make due with whatever they have left. I feel like too many on here (and admittedly other places) looked at that image without understanding what the context is, and are now running for the hills.

 

[junctionist]

Hamilton needs its own passenger rail corridor to resolve the issues with the freight lines. With GO electrification, you can build a tunnel into downtown Hamilton past Bayview Junction.

I’m not sure why this idea hasn’t been discussed more. Hamilton could have its own SmartTrack setup with a crosstown grade-separated line with 15-minute service. It needs good-quality rail access for its long-term vitality.

I think the federal and provincial governments should jointly fund a tunnel. Eventually, VIA could run HSR into Hamilton with the tunnel solution as well. Getting passenger trains off the freight railways’ tracks would also increase freight capacity, which would also be good for the economy.

 

[reaperexpress]

You mean Niagara Falls to Burlington?

No I mean what I said. There is not much freight traffic between West Harbour and Niagara Falls.

You're just going to forget the entire Milton and Richmond Hill lines?

You're really this clueless about the GO Expansion project?

I want to see GO trains down to 1 man cabin crews. But the Ontario government, Metrolinx, and ONXpress don't have the jurisdiction to force that to happen. It's up to the feds.

The feds are not just going to wake up one morning and change regulations of their own accord. The changes need to be specifically requested and advocated for by the Province.

People on this forum don't understand the levels of bureaucracy that have to happen for the simplest decisions to get the green light. There are so many moving parts in the background that we don't see.

Ah okay so we shouldn't pressure our leadership to manage the bureaucracy effectively. Got it.

No I'm not. Some people are now posting "the sky is falling" type of comments since this came out.

Citation needed

 

[guavadelic]

This is a disaster for the region. The the amount of growth projected, it is untenable to have GO service expansion stalled out for another decade.

Is there not a single one of Ford's MPs who can explain to him that a significantly improved GO regional rail service would reduce congestion for his cherished highway drivers?

More realistically, anyone could just walk down to their local MP's constituency office, and ask them to tack on an amendment to the next bill to remove the train shed from the Union station heritage designation. The new environment minister, who will probably help set government policy, is a Toronto MP with a constituency office at Queen and Pape. Any MP could submit such an amendment though.

Not even sure Metrolinx wants the train shed removed at this point. With this OnXpress news, methinks Metrolinx is using the train shed issue as a way to reduce/delay the electrification of the system.

 

[sixrings]

I don’t care what anyone says. 100 billion is better spent here and fixing the Milton line than a 401 tunnel. Everyone agrees with that. But I’ll make one larger claim. 100 Billion dollars to fix this and serve the GTA is better spent here than a faster train to Ottawa and Quebec.

 

[afransen]

I don’t care what anyone says. 100 billion is better spent here and fixing the Milton line than a 401 tunnel. Everyone agrees with that. But I’ll make one larger claim. 100 Billion dollars to fix this and serve the GTA is better spent here than a faster train to Ottawa and Quebec.

100%.

Is this project dead because of money or because of bureaucratic incompetence?

 

[ARG1]

100%.

Is this project dead because of money or because of bureaucratic incompetence?

Can we not use such exaggerated language? The project is not "Dead", not even close. I'm not even 100% sure if Metrolinx is fully in the wrong for getting rid of DB, a lot of things I'm hearing from people on the inside suggest that DB was trying to propose some very uh, "aggressive" changes that may have been untenable to the regulators, not to mention a whole bunch of Union busting efforts. We're still going to get 15m all day service on the core section of each line that was always promised, that part hasn't gone away. We're still going to electrify most of the network, that part hasn't gone away. If you think this project is dead because we might not get 5m all day service on most lines, I'm very sorry.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Ah here comes the apologia. I love how before everyone on here is selling it as almost-subway like frequencies and now 15 minutes in the "core section" is "no big deal".

AoD

 

[afransen]

Can we not use such exaggerated language? The project is not "Dead", not even close. I'm not even 100% sure if Metrolinx is fully in the wrong for getting rid of DB, a lot of things I'm hearing from people on the inside suggest that DB was trying to propose some very uh, "aggressive" changes that may have been untenable to the regulators, not to mention a whole bunch of Union busting efforts. We're still going to get 15m all day service on the core section of each line that was always promised, that part hasn't gone away. We're still going to electrify most of the network, that part hasn't gone away. If you think this project is dead because we might not get 5m all day service on most lines, I'm very sorry.

Electrify when? 15 minutes when? If it's 2040, then this project is essentially dead.

 

[ARG1]

Ah here comes the apologia. I love how before everyone on here is selling it as almost-subway like frequencies and now 15 minutes in the "core section" is "no big deal".

AoD

If not having a completely unhealthy doomerist attitude where I see any medium sized setback as world ending counts as "apologia", then I have no issue carrying that term. Listen I'm honestly disappointed like the rest of us that GO Expansion will not live up to the potential that it might've had, but seriously, let's not have overwhelming cynicism blind us to the fact that the project as it stands right now will be more ambitious than what was promised in 2018-2020. Like sure, its not going to be a 9/10 project, it will be a 5 or 6/10 project, but that's far from "Dead" or "Unsalvageable". Can we stop pretending that anything below "perfect" is unacceptable?

Electrify when? 15 minutes when? If it's 2040, then this project is essentially dead.

I'm not sure where you got that number from, there hasn't been any recent news that would even indicate that's the realistic scenerio right now. The only people who were fired were the operations team, ONXpress is still in charge of building the infrastructure and electrifying our tracks. If this recent announcement delayed the project, its probably by like 2-4 years at most, certainly not "2040".

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

If not having a completely unhealthy doomerist attitude where I see any medium sized setback as world ending counts as "apologia", then I have no issue carrying that term. Listen I'm honestly disappointed like the rest of us that GO Expansion will not live up to the potential that it might've had, but seriously, let's not have overwhelming cynicism blind us to the fact that the project as it stands right now will be more ambitious than what was promised in 2018-2020. Like sure, its not going to be a 9/10 project, it will be a 5 or 6/10 project, but that's far from "Dead" or "Unsalvageable". Can we stop pretending that anything below "perfect" is unacceptable?

It is exactly this b---s--- that makes us this cynical in the first place when someone is selling it like some transformative transit project without the slightest bit of hesitation. Let's call a spade a spade and not make underperformance a virtue when Metrolinx does it - on a Friday before a long weekend - shall we?

AoD

 

[ssiguy2]

99% of Torontonians couldn't care less whether it's OnExpress or The Simpsons running the network, all they care about is how frequent the trains are and when they are going to be electrified to decrease their journey times. Has ML given any indication as to whether both of these things are being pushed back and if so by how much?

Also, how could such a situation result in a slowing of electrification? ML has been talking about it for over a decade and still haven't managed to get a single pole in the ground. Regardless of who runs the damn thing, they still have to get built so what is the hold up? Yes, some sections are still under construction but most of the system is ready for the poles and yet nothing is happening. Why not?

 

[Urban Sky]

99% of Torontonians couldn't care less whether it's OnExpress or The Simpsons running the network, all they care about is how frequent the trains are and when they are going to be electrified to decrease their journey times. Has ML given any indication as to whether both of these things are being pushed back and if so by how much?

Agreed. The question who operates the network is of little importance to anyone outside of the circles of rail fans…

Also, how could such a situation result in a slowing of electrification? ML has been talking about it for over a decade and still haven't managed to get a single pole in the ground. Regardless of who runs the damn thing, they still have to get built so what is the hold up? Yes, some sections are still under construction but most of the system is ready for the poles and yet nothing is happening. Why not?

Because it doesn’t make sense to start electrification before the tracks at Union Station (i.e., the one station all GO corridors share) are in their final location?

 

[Northern Light]

If not having a completely unhealthy doomerist attitude where I see any medium sized setback as world ending counts as "apologia", then I have no issue carrying that term. Listen I'm honestly disappointed like the rest of us that GO Expansion will not live up to the potential that it might've had, but seriously, let's not have overwhelming cynicism blind us to the fact that the project as it stands right now will be more ambitious than what was promised in 2018-2020. Like sure, its not going to be a 9/10 project, it will be a 5 or 6/10 project, but that's far from "Dead" or "Unsalvageable". Can we stop pretending that anything below "perfect" is unacceptable?

I'll be the first to suggest restraint on doomerism and do so regularly.
But I think you're edging a bit far the other way.

Metrolinx hasn't delivered much to date that could be described as 10/10, or 9/10, or 8/10.

They are, as an organization, very consultant-reliant, with heavy churn. They are, at best, opaque and I could think of far less charitable terms.

Terminating a contract that they hyped and spent years and lots of dollars 'developing' is an indication of serious failure; one which does not inspire optimism about 'what's next'.

Lets remember, the return of LSE Express services is now 2 full years late and may well end up being 3, on a project whose original timeline was shorter than the period by which they are late.

I'm not sure where you got that number from, there hasn't been any recent news that would even indicate that's the realistic scenerio right now. The only people who were fired were the operations team, ONXpress is still in charge of building the infrastructure and electrifying our tracks. If this recent announcement delayed the project, its probably by like 2-4 years at most, certainly not "2040".

The initial start of work being delayed by 2-4 years sounds about right. However, the question of when the project will complete key pieces and give us the long promised service upgrades is a different matter entirely.

Mx has shown a persistent habit of building infrastructure in a haphazard way, a bit here, a bit there, without finishing any one project or thought.
The current construction packages in the pipeline, that have dates on them, do not lead one to believe any epiphanies on this file are likely in the near term.

****

So now, we shouldn't be doomerist; but we should be angry. Angry at poor management, angry at poor project oversight and execution (hello Crosstown), angry at a media that is, if one is feeling kind, persistently lazy,. we here at UT have access to a level of information the average person never sees (I'm speaking here of what's posted, not just those of us who peek behind the curtain further). The media should be ashamed of themselves for letting so much slide.