[TheHonestMaple]

Yeah what was that comment about? Suggesting that you’ll personally stop any expansion into Hamilton as if you have some connection to Metrolinx? If that’s true, you should seriously retract that comment. If you’re a Metrolinx employee, that’s a really really bad look…..

 

[TheHonestMaple]

We’re not treating anyone like enemies. We’re just pointing out that Hamilton is underserved considering its significant downtown population. I also pointed out there are other stations north of Toronto that make little financial sense, that seem to get priority. That’s a legitimate point to make, even if it offends your sensibilities.

Has there ever been a plan to construct a flyover at the Hamilton junction ? I’m curious if it’s ever even been floated as an idea, officially.

 

[Northern Light]

To avoid intemperateness, I will now employ the ignore function, and I will also temporarily suspend giving people from Hamilton a peak behind the curtain at what's coming since they can't manage to say thank you when you do.

 

[crs1026]

Has there ever been a plan to construct a flyover at the Hamilton junction ? I’m curious if it’s ever even been floated as an idea, officially.

Most definitely, more than once, to or beyond the 10% design stage..

If you look across the Metrolinx system, there are many cases where the current solution has been judged "good enough for a decade or two". I dissent from ML's apparent lack of urgency on some of these, but again, there are limits to how much money is available. I would not single out Hamilton as receiving more of this deferral mentality than other places.

- Paul

 

[TheHonestMaple]

Most definitely, more than once, to or beyond the 10% design stage..

If you look across the Metrolinx system, there are many cases where the current solution has been judged "good enough for a decade or two". I dissent from ML's apparent lack of urgency on some of these, but again, there are limits to how much money is available. I would not single out Hamilton as receiving more of this deferral mentality than other places.

- Paul

thanks for the info. Well it would be fantastic to see that, and I hope it somehow makes it into some budget someday...

 

[ARG1]

You seem to think the Hunter street tunnel is some sort of 10km long subway tunnel buried 50m below the surface. It's a 500m tunnel that is about 1.0m below the surface of Hunter Street. It was originally constructed using the open trench technique. Could easily be done again for less than the construction of all these Barrie and Stouffville line vanity project stations.

It would help if you actually read what people told you, because I think I quite clearly outlined the challenge of expanding the Hunter Street tunnel.

I'll expand it with this: I'm pretty sure that expanding a hypothetical 10km (ok maybe not 10 but 2km) long 50m deep tunnel would actually be cheaper and easier than what we currently have, since there you could hypothetically just plop a TBM down and have that dig whilst the existing tunnel is in service. WIth Hunter Street you're going to have to acquire all of the surface properties along the sides of the street, and build significant easements because you will have to disrupt traffic through the tunnel during construcion. There is no other way around it.

Also, calling the expansions to the Barrie and Stouffville Line "Vanity Projects" is kinda yikes. If double tracking a station to allow it to have service more often than every hour is a vanity project, I don't know what I'd call spending billions of dollars to shift a station over by 1.5km.

This is a very Toronto-centric point to make. In my opinion, you can have it both ways because Hamilton is a cultural and entertainment centre in its own right. So commenting that the Hamilton CMA deserves better Go transit service because of the 800,000 population is a sensible argument in my mind because as Hamilton grows and even in its current state people from Burlington at Appleby, Burlington and Aldershot will be taking the Go train toward Hamilton. I already know some people that do this to come to a workplace.

Its an interesting argument to look at, but its still a very arbitrary criterion, especially regarding the context of what TheHonestMaple is advocating for. There is a lot more to infrastructure construction than just "deserves" and "don't deserves", there's also feasibility and cost benefit ratios. Even ignoring the whole "Vanity Project" nonsense, why does a city like Vaughan or Markham get to have frequent electrified all day service, meanwhile Hamilton is stuck with 30m service? Well its because Metrolinx owns the Newmarket and Uxbridge Subs, and thus have the full freedom to do as they wish with the ROW, and don't have to deal CN or CP trains during service hours. You don't have to do stuff like widen an existing tunnel under a fully built up street, or try and build a flyover on extremely weak and flimsy soil, all you really need to is plop another track, and give stations a 2nd platform. You can tout all you want the Hamilton CMA having 800k residents or it being a "cultural center", but if the environment makes it too difficult to provide ultimate infrastructure, then perhaps (and maybe rightfully so) these projects aren't worth it despite the 800k population. In other words, using this as a way of framing the issue as "Metrolinx wants to ignore Hamilton" is simply wrong. Now you can make this argument in regards to other projects like the B-Line, but I have my own choice words regarding that project that I think everyone here can easily predict.

Most definitely, more than once, to or beyond the 10% design stage..

If you look across the Metrolinx system, there are many cases where the current solution has been judged "good enough for a decade or two". I dissent from ML's apparent lack of urgency on some of these, but again, there are limits to how much money is available. I would not single out Hamilton as receiving more of this deferral mentality than other places.

- Paul

I think its worth reminding people about the current state of Scarborough Junction, where Metrolinx decided to not build it at all (unless DB tells them otherwise) despite the operational and system usability improvements it can provide. This is just something Metrolinx does, they find some way to value engineer something if they don't think the benefits of building it are good enough, even if its something like "their darling Stouffville Line" that serves their precious Markham over Hamilton.

 

[TheHonestMaple]

It would help if you actually read what people told you, because I think I quite clearly outlined the challenge of expanding the Hunter Street tunnel.

I'll expand it with this: I'm pretty sure that expanding a hypothetical 10km (ok maybe not 10 but 2km) long 50m deep tunnel would actually be cheaper and easier than what we currently have, since there you could hypothetically just plop a TBM down and have that dig whilst the existing tunnel is in service. WIth Hunter Street you're going to have to acquire all of the surface properties along the sides of the street, and build significant easements because you will have to disrupt traffic through the tunnel during construcion. There is no other way around it.

Also, calling the expansions to the Barrie and Stouffville Line "Vanity Projects" is kinda yikes. If double tracking a station to allow it to have service more often than every hour is a vanity project, I don't know what I'd call spending billions of dollars to shift a station over by 1.5km.


Its an interesting argument to look at, but its still a very arbitrary criterion, especially regarding the context of what TheHonestMaple is advocating for. There is a lot more to infrastructure construction than just "deserves" and "don't deserves", there's also feasibility and cost benefit ratios. Even ignoring the whole "Vanity Project" nonsense, why does a city like Vaughan or Markham get to have frequent electrified all day service, meanwhile Hamilton is stuck with 30m service? Well its because Metrolinx owns the Newmarket and Uxbridge Subs, and thus have the full freedom to do as they wish with the ROW, and don't have to deal CN or CP trains during service hours. You don't have to do stuff like widen an existing tunnel under a fully built up street, or try and build a flyover on extremely weak and flimsy soil, all you really need to is plop another track, and give stations a 2nd platform. You can tout all you want the Hamilton CMA having 800k residents or it being a "cultural center", but if the environment makes it too difficult to provide ultimate infrastructure, then perhaps (and maybe rightfully so) these projects aren't worth it despite the 800k population. In other words, using this as a way of framing the issue as "Metrolinx wants to ignore Hamilton" is simply wrong. Now you can make this argument in regards to other projects like the B-Line, but I have my own choice words regarding that project that I think everyone here can easily predict.


I think its worth reminding people about the current state of Scarborough Junction, where Metrolinx decided to not build it at all (unless DB tells them otherwise) despite the operational and system usability improvements it can provide. This is just something Metrolinx does, they find some way to value engineer something if they don't think the benefits of building it are good enough, even if its something like "their darling Stouffville Line" that serves their precious Markham over Hamilton.

Again, where is the value in Bloomington? 100 million dollars of tax payer money vanished into thin air when that thing was built. And underserved Hamiltonians noticed.

Also, i've quite clearly mentioned that 100 million to expand the short and shallow Hunter Street tunnel is likely quite reasonable.

 

[nfitz]

This is a very Toronto-centric point to make.

Isn't that the entire raison d'être of a Toronto forum?

 

[ARG1]

Again, where is the value in Bloomington? 100 million dollars of tax payer money vanished into thin air when that thing was built. And underserved Hamiltonians noticed.

1) You specifically said "Barrie and Stouffville Lines", last I checked Bloomington is on the Richmond Hill Line.
2) Your hyperfixation on Bloomington implies that you believe that Bloomington being an overbuilt waste of money means that every project on York Region is an overbuilt waste of money (which Viva Orange might actually be). I think everyone here agrees that Bloomington probably shouldn't have been built, but it being a mistake certainly doesn't mean that everything else being built doesn't have value.
3) Say what you will about Bloomington Station, at least its 100m dollars that went into a station that can be used by people avoiding DVP traffic, and to reduce congestion at Aurora Station. I'd certainly place the value of this project (relative to its cost) much higher than spending several billions of dollars expanding the Hunter Street Tunnel just to move a rail alignment by 1.5km.

 

[Chris R.]

Isn't that the entire raison d'être of a Toronto forum?

No? This is a thread about all Metrolinx construction projects.

Regardless of the reason for the existence of the forum, I don't see how that impacts the content of a discussion.

 

[TheHonestMaple]

1) You specifically said "Barrie and Stouffville Lines", last I checked Bloomington is on the Richmond Hill Line.
2) Your hyperfixation on Bloomington implies that you believe that Bloomington being an overbuilt waste of money means that every project on York Region is an overbuilt waste of money (which Viva Orange might actually be). I think everyone here agrees that Bloomington probably shouldn't have been built, but it being a mistake certainly doesn't mean that everything else being built doesn't have value.
3) Say what you will about Bloomington Station, at least its 100m dollars that went into a station that can be used by people avoiding DVP traffic, and to reduce congestion at Aurora Station. I'd certainly place the value of this project (relative to its cost) much higher than spending several billions of dollars expanding the Hunter Street Tunnel just to move a rail alignment by 1.5km.

Several billion dollars?!


That's my point exactly though about Bloomington, it probably takes like 15 people off the DVP every hour. Whereas increased Hamilton frequency could take literally a couple thousand off the QEW.

 

[nfitz]

No? This is a thread about all Metrolinx construction projects.

Though an urban Toronto lens. Tossing around terms like Toronto-centric seems redundant. And even if it wasn't, obviously GO Rail is designed to be Toronto-centric, for very good reasons.

Also this thread isn't about all Metrolinx construction projects. And perhaps not even most Metrolinx construction projects. There's separate threads for many different Metrolinx construction projects. And even threads for projects that may never happen - like the Hamilton LRT.

I'd think speculation about GO service within Hamilton would be in https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/hamilton-general-service-discussion.21120/ - which would then only be through a Toronto lens, rather than Toronto-centric.

There's also the Ontario forum of CPDTB which has various threads for smaller municipalities - https://cptdb.ca/forum/10-ontario/

 

[TheHonestMaple]

Though an urban Toronto lens. Tossing around terms like Toronto-centric seems redundant. And even if it wasn't, obviously GO Rail is designed to be Toronto-centric, for very good reasons.

Also this thread isn't about all Metrolinx construction projects. And perhaps not even most Metrolinx construction projects. There's separate threads for many different Metrolinx construction projects. And even threads for projects that may never happen - like the Hamilton LRT.

excellent troll

 

[crs1026]

Again, where is the value in Bloomington? 100 million dollars of tax payer money vanished into thin air when that thing was built. And underserved Hamiltonians noticed.

I am loathe to defend Bloomington - it's an overbuilt station most certainly. But pushing the tracks that far up the line made sense, to try to draw cars off the 404. A much more modest station was all that was needed.

The Bloomington design actually predates the current government, btw. There was a period where the previous government was endorsing all sorts of grandiose stations, mostly because stations can be built faster than tracks and they simply wanted things for photo ops. Hamilton got its share in that era, as evidenced by the Pan Am games emphasis that made West Harbour a priority. (and yes, once the games were over, ML did seem to forget about completing the work, and both the station and the triple tracking from it over thru Bayview sat half-done for years thereafter).

More recently, Ford has not shown an interest in Hamilton mostly as it was NDP territory.... the cancellation of the LRT and Minister Mulroney's cowardly backout of that public meeting certainly speaks volumes......but to make the picture complete, Hamilton Council has sent all sorts of messages over the years that it didn't want that transit either.

The recent bit of track and signalling at Aldershot at least enables more frequent service than hourly when ML is ready to offer it. The Hunter Street tunnel is a some-day proposition. I would put extensions to the Grimsby line beyond Stoney Creek as more deserving of scarce funding. Confederation could certainly be advanced faster.

So while I can't say that Hamilton has escaped a few low blows, I would not say the city has been singled out. There is certainly an opportunity that is being missed - to intensify and upscale Hamilton as a cheaper and better way to add density in the GTA than trying to force it into a reluctant Toronto. I would support a concerted effort to drive growth in Hamilton. But - be careful what you ask for - where does Hamilton stand on the yellow belt issue? Is Hamilton ready to build 4-plexes as of right?

- Paul

 

[TheHonestMaple]

I am loathe to defend Bloomington - it's an overbuilt station most certainly. But pushing the tracks that far up the line made sense, to try to draw cars off the 404. A much more modest station was all that was needed.

The Bloomington design actually predates the current government, btw. There was a period where the previous government was endorsing all sorts of grandiose stations, mostly because stations can be built faster than tracks and they simply wanted things for photo ops. Hamilton got its share in that era, as evidenced by the Pan Am games emphasis that made West Harbour a priority. (and yes, once the games were over, ML did seem to forget about completing the work, and both the station and the triple tracking from it over thru Bayview sat half-done for years thereafter).

More recently, Ford has not shown an interest in Hamilton mostly as it was NDP territory.... the cancellation of the LRT and Minister Mulroney's cowardly backout of that public meeting certainly speaks volumes......but to make the picture complete, Hamilton Council has sent all sorts of messages over the years that it didn't want that transit either.

The recent bit of track and signalling at Aldershot at least enables more frequent service than hourly when ML is ready to offer it. The Hunter Street tunnel is a some-day proposition. I would put extensions to the Grimsby line beyond Stoney Creek as more deserving of scarce funding. Confederation could certainly be advanced faster.

So while I can't say that Hamilton has escaped a few low blows, I would not say the city has been singled out. There is certainly an opportunity that is being missed - to intensify and upscale Hamilton as a cheaper and better way to add density in the GTA than trying to force it into a reluctant Toronto. I would support a concerted effort to drive growth in Hamilton. But - be careful what you ask for - where does Hamilton stand on the yellow belt issue? Is Hamilton ready to build 4-plexes as of right?

- Paul

Balanced response. Thank you.

As for West Harbour, you're absolutely right. They built it, then basically completely neglected it. We're only getting tracks connecting it with the main line this summer/fall! Years later. For anyone reading this who isn't aware, trains currently have to first back out of West Harbour westbound, before they can proceed east bound towards Niagara Falls. It's hilarious bad service.

I was always in the opinion that Metrolinx would have been better offer twinning the Hunter Street tunnel, and extending the tracks eastbound towards Grimsby from there, building a station near downtown Stoney Creek. Instead of building West Harbour. But that will never happen now unfortunately.