[lenaitch]

Can you link to it? I know there has been talk of a road and of a rail line, but I did not see that math released.

I used the rhetorically. I doubt any detailed math would have been released publicly because it is not public money, but the original owners (Cliffs? Noront? I honestly lose track - the site has been through a few hands since activity on the site started in the early 2000s) looked at both road and rail and determined that rail was cheaper per-ton but had a too high development cost. Most of what I saw came from Northern Ontario Business articles.

Possibly forestry.

Timber in the Hudson's Bay Lowlands are too small to be marketable, the terrain too wet to harvest, and the area is too far from markets. I've heard the same argument for the FNs to mill their own lumber to build their own houses. A good sized tree in most areas might yield a couple of 2xs.

Depending on what trains are 'allowed',tourism and supplying the communities would be the others.

The entire remote FN population - from James Bay to the Manitoba border, probably doesn't crack 15,000. Most, if not all of the communities that will be anywhere near whatever road or rail alignment they ultimately choose, will be under 1000 people. Not much of a business model.

 

[micheal_can]

I used the rhetorically. I doubt any detailed math would have been released publicly because it is not public money, but the original owners (Cliffs? Noront? I honestly lose track - the site has been through a few hands since activity on the site started in the early 2000s) looked at both road and rail and determined that rail was cheaper per-ton but had a too high development cost. Most of what I saw came from Northern Ontario Business articles.

I have seen those articles. I have also seen others that point that the province is pushing for a rail link as it would reduce the truck traffic and damage to the highways. IIRC it is either SSM or Timmins that the ore would be headed to.

Timber in the Hudson's Bay Lowlands are too small to be marketable, the terrain too wet to harvest, and the area is too far from markets. I've heard the same argument for the FNs to mill their own lumber to build their own houses. A good sized tree in most areas might yield a couple of 2xs.

That short? I have been to Longlac; the place roughly where the line would go to. They seemed bigger there, but it is true the further north you go, the smaller they get.

The entire remote FN population - from James Bay to the Manitoba border, probably doesn't crack 15,000. Most, if not all of the communities that will be anywhere near whatever road or rail alignment they ultimately choose, will be under 1000 people. Not much of a business model.

Moosonee is 1500 and Moose Factory is 2400. They are at the end of a rail line. That is the kind of service I was thinking. A mixed train could operate a flag stop service for any camps along the way. While it is not much of a business model, if it starts up and the mine shuts down, what happens to those businesses? Do we just ignore it? Remember, the end of the ONR at James Bay has no industry either, but it is kept open, and is subsidized by the provincial government.

 

[Allandale25]

Amtrak Virginia Closes State Fiscal Year with Record Ridership | Williamsburg Yorktown Daily

wydaily.com

 

[nfitz]

• This serves Hay River Harbour, transferring cargo / bulk petroleum to/from communities along the Mackenzie River and Western Arctic
• CN's repair estimate is $16 million; that's not a lot of dough IMO for a project of northern importance to Canada
• NWT's application was supported by heavy-hitters: Town of Hay River, Kátł'odeeche First Nation, Northwest Territories Association of Communities, Northwest Territories Power Corporation, Community Rail Advocacy Alliance, Gwich’in Tribal Council, Inuvialuit Regional Corporation, Li-FT Power Ltd, Vital Metals and Imperial Oil
• The only real reason for dismissing is based on CN going down the transfer / discontinuance pathway process

I think the feds could help NWT find a solution and funding to this, sounds like a great opportunity for a municipally owned shortline.

I'm not sure why you interpret the dismissal being done for that reason.

The reason stated in decision for keeping service suspended seems pretty clear, simple, and obvious.

For some time there was only 2 clients left. Shipper A and Shipper B.

Shipper A is now using Enterprise and doesn't need Hay River (presumably they are transferring to truck there anyway, so it makes little difference - so are no longer interest in service to Hay River. Enterprise is far more convenient for shipping to Yellowknife, Fort Simpson, and Wrigley than Hay River.

And Shipper B is not one of the 11 parties to the application, and has not asked CN to ship anything since the fire. I'd have assumed if they really cared, they would also have been a party (who are they?).

I see little point in fixing a relatively short piece of track, without any actual customers.

The track from Enterprise to Hay River, and the terminal at Hay River made perfect sense when the railway opened in the early 1960s, when there were no roads much past Enterprise or Hay River. At that point, it would make sense to barge everything to Yellowknife, Fort Simpson, Fort Laird, and a dozen more towns along Great Slave Lake and the Mackenzie River. But the more recent completion of roads 600 km up the Mackenzie River and 450 km to Yellowknife, and about 3/4 the way around the lake eliminates the need for much of the barging. And now with newish Deh Cho Bridge providing year-round highway access to Yellowknife, and paved roads, barge usage must be even lower than ever.

If the Northwest Territories wants to pay only $16 million or so to rebuild the railway, and then provide them with some business - then they can afford it. They spent hundreds of millions (in current $) building the road network that put Hay River out of business. The Deh Cho bridge alone cost $200 million (in 2012 or earlier $). The next phase of the Mackenzie highway past Wrigley to connect to Norman Wells was estimated to be $700 million back in 2022. It will surely be $1 billion by the time it opens sometime next decade. And what of the next phases (to Norman Wells, and then to the Dempster Highway. Those will surely be about $1-billion a piece. Each one eliminating even more barging. And they are talking about spending $1 billion to build the highway from Yellowknife to Nunavut. So there's money.

The whole point of the railway construction past Enterprise (or perhaps even High Level) was to get to the now closed Pine Point mine. Should we also restore the 85 km from Hay River to Pine Point that was closed in the late 1980s?

Possibly forestry.

What trees would your forest that close to the tree line? Look at Google Streetview.

Tourism? God help us ...

 

[lenaitch]

I have seen those articles. I have also seen others that point that the province is pushing for a rail link as it would reduce the truck traffic and damage to the highways. IIRC it is either SSM or Timmins that the ore would be headed to.

Most of the studies that I saw concerned linking the RofF to existing road/rail, not hauling it all the way to a mill. The last I heard the preferred site for a chromite refinery was SSM. The plan at one point by one of the proponents was to exploit the base metals in the region first and use existing mills as a way to pay for the development of the chromite and the building of a mill. On proposal I saw was a haul road from the site to Pickle Lake then down Hwy 599 to a rail head at either Savant Lake or Ignace. As I said, things keep changing.

One problem I see with road hauling over the distances involved is the amount of trucks they would need 24/7 to keep a mill operating, and the impact (literally!) on a year-round road in that environment.

I suppose if the province is pushing for rail, the proponents would be all too happy to let them pay for it.

That short? I have been to Longlac; the place roughly where the line would go to. They seemed bigger there, but it is true the further north you go, the smaller they get.

Longlac isn't in the Lowlands and is where the rail/road would end, not begin. To get to the RofF region from Longlac, turn right and go another 200km.

This is typical (stock images):

Moosonee is 1500 and Moose Factory is 2400. They are at the end of a rail line. That is the kind of service I was thinking. A mixed train could operate a flag stop service for any camps along the way. While it is not much of a business model, if it starts up and the mine shuts down, what happens to those businesses? Do we just ignore it? Remember, the end of the ONR at James Bay has no industry either, but it is kept open, and is subsidized by the provincial government.

Both are adjacent to each other, and that roughly 4000 population is about 4x the population of any of the communities strung along whatever RofF corridor they choose. It is also the departure point for some barge work for coastal communities. That line was built in the 1920s when railway building was still all the rage. It no longer is.

You seem to be under the impression that a townsite and supporting businesses will pop up at the RofF. They will not. The province no longer allows 'resource towns'. Like the former Victor mine in the area, and even the Musslewhite mine, which is actually connected by a road (ish) to Pickle Lake, they will be fly-in.

 

[micheal_can]

Most of the studies that I saw concerned linking the RofF to existing road/rail, not hauling it all the way to a mill. The last I heard the preferred site for a chromite refinery was SSM. The plan at one point by one of the proponents was to exploit the base metals in the region first and use existing mills as a way to pay for the development of the chromite and the building of a mill. On proposal I saw was a haul road from the site to Pickle Lake then down Hwy 599 to a rail head at either Savant Lake or Ignace. As I said, things keep changing.

One problem I see with road hauling over the distances involved is the amount of trucks they would need 24/7 to keep a mill operating, and the impact (literally!) on a year-round road in that environment.

I suppose if the province is pushing for rail, the proponents would be all too happy to let them pay for it.

I have seen so much about it, but nothing concrete about who would own/build the line. I have seen it would be part of the ONR, part of some other provincial government body and private. So far, there have been nothing concrete enough for anyone to say who will build it.

Longlac isn't in the Lowlands and is where the rail/road would end, not begin. To get to the RofF region from Longlac, turn right and go another 200km.

This is typical (stock images):

View attachment 671693View attachment 671694

In that case,yeah, no forestry. Really the 2 main economic engines that could drive car loads would be mining and forestry and their related industries.

Both are adjacent to each other, and that roughly 4000 population is about 4x the population of any of the communities strung along whatever RofF corridor they choose. It is also the departure point for some barge work for coastal communities. That line was built in the 1920s when railway building was still all the rage. It no longer is.

That makes sense.It is impressive that it is still running.

You seem to be under the impression that a townsite and supporting businesses will pop up at the RofF. They will not. The province no longer allows 'resource towns'. Like the former Victor mine in the area, and even the Musslewhite mine, which is actually connected by a road (ish) to Pickle Lake, they will be fly-in.

My expectations of these communities is that they will stay much the same, with maybe a slight growth, but nothing meaningful that would demand the rail traffic to support the line. My thinking of the workers in the mines would be fly in fly out, or on a train once every week or so, depending on their contract. Or, is that what you mean by a resource town? What I am thinking of is the types of tourist camps along the various rail lines that exist now may pop up when/if the line is built. Again, not much, and certainly not enough to support the line.

This is kind of the point. The mines likely can support the car loads needed to keep the rail line operating in decent shape for the life of the mine. If that mine stays open 50 years, any community along the line will be used to a rail line for supplies and the potential for these tourist camps to be operating on the assumption that the line will be there forever. If anything, a road would be less economically destructive if the mine ever closes.

 

[crs1026]

I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but I foresee very little railroad construction as a result of "Nation Building" initiatives, either in NWT or closer to home eg Ring of Fire.

Why? Because a hundred kms of road added to the national network allows far more intense development, and more mobility for isolated residents, than a hundred kms of new rail construction. A bush road eventually develops hamlets, gas stops, small stores... and enables small communities along its entire length. A rail line serves the end point, but does little to enable mobility along its length.

The ore volume needs to be enormous before roads are impractical or uneconomical. Transload at the existing railheads is far more likely.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

The ore volume needs to be enormous before roads are impractical or uneconomical. Transload at the existing railheads is far more likely.

- Paul

What would be considered enormous?
Locally in Sudbury, all ore within 100km from the smelter is trucked. Anything beyond that is on a train. The excuse has to do with profitability. However.the roads have been taking a beating and we have some of the worst roads in the province. From what I have heard,the RoF is on par with, or bigger than Sudbury area has ever been. If that is the case,transloading is likely the best option. 11,17, and 101would be destroyed within a few years from those ore trucks.I have literally seen basketball sized rocks falling from a truck being strewn all over the road. That caused even more damaged and shut the road down for a few hours while it was cleaned up.

 

[lenaitch]

I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but I foresee very little railroad construction as a result of "Nation Building" initiatives, either in NWT or closer to home eg Ring of Fire.

Why? Because a hundred kms of road added to the national network allows far more intense development, and more mobility for isolated residents, than a hundred kms of new rail construction. A bush road eventually develops hamlets, gas stops, small stores... and enables small communities along its entire length. A rail line serves the end point, but does little to enable mobility along its length.

The ore volume needs to be enormous before roads are impractical or uneconomical. Transload at the existing railheads is far more likely.

- Paul

I tend to agree; rail serves shippers, not communities. I doubt either a road (or rail) would go through an actual FNT - that adds another level of complication. I highly doubt there would hamlets of any settlement enroute. The province has no intention of allowing that to happen and can simply refuse to issue land-use permits.

Admittedly, I haven't read much at all recently, but I don't recall any indication of on-site processing beyond crushing, and I don't recall if they ever speculated on daily output, but I assume the volume would, in fact, be high if they intend to keep a refinery operating economically. At its peak in the 1990s, the Kidd Creek concentrator was processing 13000 tonnes/day.

I've mentioned this before, but if they go with a road, I will be really interested in how they intend to build and maintain a heavy haul road in that terrain to keep it serviceable year-round (if I live long enough).

 

[micheal_can]

I tend to agree; rail serves shippers, not communities. I doubt either a road (or rail) would go through an actual FNT - that adds another level of complication. I highly doubt there would hamlets of any settlement enroute. The province has no intention of allowing that to happen and can simply refuse to issue land-use permits.

Admittedly, I haven't read much at all recently, but I don't recall any indication of on-site processing beyond crushing, and I don't recall if they ever speculated on daily output, but I assume the volume would, in fact, be high if they intend to keep a refinery operating economically. At its peak in the 1990s, the Kidd Creek concentrator was processing 13000 tonnes/day.

I've mentioned this before, but if they go with a road, I will be really interested in how they intend to build and maintain a heavy haul road in that terrain to keep it serviceable year-round (if I live long enough).

Depending on how the project goes, it may need FN approval, which may also mean that it has to connect their communities either by rail or road.

Rail is no better than road on muskeg or permafrost.

Far North Friday #60: Permafrost Fridge — Canada (Ontario) Beneath Our Feet

In this Far North story, by Andy Fyon, I recount my first experience with discontinuous permafrost, or late melting ground ice, and its use as a fridge for our remote bush tent camp.

www.ontariobeneathourfeet.com

 

[drum118]

'World's first' hydrogen-based steel railway track laid in Austria​

voestalpine produces the world's first hydrogen-based rail​

 

[lenaitch]

Depending on how the project goes, it may need FN approval, which may also mean that it has to connect their communities either by rail or road.

Rail is no better than road on muskeg or permafrost.

Far North Friday #60: Permafrost Fridge — Canada (Ontario) Beneath Our Feet

In this Far North story, by Andy Fyon, I recount my first experience with discontinuous permafrost, or late melting ground ice, and its use as a fridge for our remote bush tent camp.

www.ontariobeneathourfeet.com

That is a given under current governance. How granular FN 'free, prior and informed consent' gets is a moving target.

 

[crs1026]

I tend to agree; rail serves shippers, not communities. I doubt either a road (or rail) would go through an actual FNT - that adds another level of complication. I highly doubt there would hamlets of any settlement enroute. The province has no intention of allowing that to happen and can simply refuse to issue land-use permits.

Admittedly, I haven't read much at all recently, but I don't recall any indication of on-site processing beyond crushing, and I don't recall if they ever speculated on daily output, but I assume the volume would, in fact, be high if they intend to keep a refinery operating economically. At its peak in the 1990s, the Kidd Creek concentrator was processing 13000 tonnes/day.

I've mentioned this before, but if they go with a road, I will be really interested in how they intend to build and maintain a heavy haul road in that terrain to keep it serviceable year-round (if I live long enough).

I am not knowledgeable about road policy in the North, or about FN positions towards such.....but intuition tells me that if a private road is built through a remote area to haul a particular commodity, anybody living nearby will eventually want to use that road and have their community connected to it. I would bet that FN's would align to that... so long as they control the detailed design work and are not having something forced on them. Roads bring mobility and enable connectivity, which improves standard of living..

I am also pretty certain that the appetite both federally and provincially for resource projects will lead to some quiet bending of the status quo.... again, provided FNs' interests are aligned.

I am also ignorant about volumes and tonnage of mining products.... but I have seen railcars loaded with nickel concentrate packed in large white bags. One railcar carries 3-4 bags, the point being one bag is eminently truckable if needed, three bags on a railcar is more economical....provided the railway already exists, I suspect some careful cost-return decisions will be needed to consider whether the rail line is better on a life cycle basis.... but I expect there will be plenty of people advocating for the road option.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

That is a given under current governance. How granular FN 'free, prior and informed consent' gets is a moving target.

Hence "May". A year ago, it would have been "must". If FN say they need the fixed line to connect to their community, it may happen. It also might now. We have yet to see what this new government actually will do when it comes to FN.

 

[lenaitch]

I am not knowledgeable about road policy in the North, or about FN positions towards such.....but intuition tells me that if a private road is built through a remote area to haul a particular commodity, anybody living nearby will eventually want to use that road and have their community connected to it. I would bet that FN's would align to that... so long as they control the detailed design work and are not having something forced on them. Roads bring mobility and enable connectivity, which improves standard of living..

I am also pretty certain that the appetite both federally and provincially for resource projects will lead to some quiet bending of the status quo.... again, provided FNs' interests are aligned.

I am also ignorant about volumes and tonnage of mining products.... but I have seen railcars loaded with nickel concentrate packed in large white bags. One railcar carries 3-4 bags, the point being one bag is eminently truckable if needed, three bags on a railcar is more economical....provided the railway already exists, I suspect some careful cost-return decisions will be needed to consider whether the rail line is better on a life cycle basis.... but I expect there will be plenty of people advocating for the road option.

- Paul

One of the earlier proponents floated the idea of a private haul road and that went over like a lead balloon with the FNs. Unless the policy has changed (and not considering any federal involvement which always complicate things), if a road receives public (provincial) funding, it has to be open to the public. This would be similar to the Sultan Road between Chapleau and Hwy 144. It is open to the public on a 'your own risk' basis and normal HTA rules such as vehicle dimensions don't apply. It was also up to the company (E.B Eddy at the time) how and when they maintained it.

The full length and breadth of FN consent is yet to be hammered out.

I am also so ignorant, and I don't recall ever seeing tonnage/production rates for the project; which isn't surprising as it is proprietary information. I don't recall any of the proposals saying that they were intending to build a concentrator on-site but, then again, they didn't say they wouldn't. It would require mor energy on-site (something else that I don't recall being discussed) but it would certainly reduce the amount to be hauled out vs raw crushed ore.

The trick is to provide enough product - in one form or another - to keep a mill/refinery operating efficiently. Depending on the mineral and process, a mill/refinery can be fed from multiple mines. The output of Kidd Creek near Timmins is rail-hauled (concentrated) to Rouyn-Noranda to be processed along with products from other mines. The golden ticket from the RofF is chromite, and I'm not aware of any other chromite mine or refinery in Canada let alone Ontario.