[lenaitch]

Heck, if it were the lack of ships, lets get a crown corporation stood up for that. If the government is going to use our tax dollars, lets have it used for making Canada even better than it already is.

I disagree. The State's involvement in for-profit enterprises should be limited (beyond a regulatory role). A government-owned, Canadian-flagged blue water fleet in international service could not compete on costs alone.

With limited exceptions, the role of the State in a non-socialist economy is to regulate, support and facilitate the means of wealth, not provide it.

 

[micheal_can]

I disagree. The State's involvement in for-profit enterprises should be limited (beyond a regulatory role). A government-owned, Canadian-flagged blue water fleet in international service could not compete on costs alone.

With limited exceptions, the role of the State in a non-socialist economy is to regulate, support and facilitate the means of wealth, not provide it.

This would fall under 'support' or 'facilitate'.
Regardless, at least we know that if that port needs to expand, it can.

 

[crs1026]

I disagree. The State's involvement in for-profit enterprises should be limited (beyond a regulatory role). A government-owned, Canadian-flagged blue water fleet in international service could not compete on costs alone.

With limited exceptions, the role of the State in a non-socialist economy is to regulate, support and facilitate the means of wealth, not provide it.

Well, pick your poison. When it comes to public infrastructure, sometimes private involvement is constructive but sometimes private interests diverge from public interests in ways that creates disfunction. And public infrastructure - transport clearly is a matter of public interest, which ought to override private interest - may have risks and potential low or negative rates of return that necessitates government providing capital, assuming risk, or operating cost because private ownership simply won't do what is required.

To this point the private ownership and operation of maritime shipping seems relatively benign (but not perfect) where past public ownership has not done better. Crown corporations and public enterprise are not something that Canada does well. So pragmatically I'm supportive of status quo, but there may have to be exceptions..... and the regulatory collar must be fairly tight, certainly tighter than business interests would advocate for.

- Paul

 

[dowlingm]

The capacity issues stem from the fact that CN has put an artificial cap on their own services to Halifax. There is just one container train a day to and from Halifax to points west.

I'm not sure what would persuade them to fix this, short of more agreements with more shipping companies.

Dan

They did increase to 9/weekly when backlogs were really bad - the question would be how to incentivize CN to maintain that capacity to proactively keep port congestion lower.

Halifax Port Making Progress in Reducing Rail Congestion, but Challenges Remain

PSA Halifax has provided an official update on the ongoing rail congestion at the Atlantic Hub Terminal, reporting significant progress despite severe winter ch

www.primefreight.com

 

[micheal_can]

They did increase to 9/weekly when backlogs were really bad - the question would be how to incentivize CN to maintain that capacity to proactively keep port congestion lower.

Halifax Port Making Progress in Reducing Rail Congestion, but Challenges Remain

PSA Halifax has provided an official update on the ongoing rail congestion at the Atlantic Hub Terminal, reporting significant progress despite severe winter ch

www.primefreight.com

Can they be incentivized? This could be a case where the costs are going to be too high to justify it. What really is needed is the various shippers and uses of CN to put that pressure on. The bigger problem is that rail is not the fastest way to ship goods anymore. It should be, but it isn't.

 

[lenaitch]

Deleted

 

[lenaitch]

This would fall under 'support' or 'facilitate'.
Regardless, at least we know that if that port needs to expand, it can.

But that's not what I was responding to. This was your statement:

Heck, if it were the lack of ships, lets get a crown corporation stood up for that.

 

[micheal_can]

But that's not what I was responding to. This was your statement:

Although a stretch, it could still fall under it. TBH, if that is the biggest problem for getting more shipping to that port, then there are much bigger worldwide issues that exist, and that is not going to be solved. We do have a ship under the Federal Fleet for the RCN, but that is an extreme case. For some reason,I thought CN had ships, but all I could find was CN Marine which were various ferries in the East Coast.

My thinking is taxpayer money is there to do things that the private sector can't or won't do. So, what we really need to know is what is stopping more CN trains in the Maritimes and what is preventing the Port of Saint John from reaching capacity. Till we know those things, all of this is speculation.

 

[lenaitch]

Although a stretch, it could still fall under it. TBH, if that is the biggest problem for getting more shipping to that port, then there are much bigger worldwide issues that exist, and that is not going to be solved. We do have a ship under the Federal Fleet for the RCN, but that is an extreme case. For some reason,I thought CN had ships, but all I could find was CN Marine which were various ferries in the East Coast.

My thinking is taxpayer money is there to do things that the private sector can't or won't do. So, what we really need to know is what is stopping more CN trains in the Maritimes and what is preventing the Port of Saint John from reaching capacity. Till we know those things, all of this is speculation.

Speculate all you want but I stand by my position that a government-owned, international blue water commercial fleet is a patently bad idea.

 

[C_Johnson_1995]

The Huron Central is now down to operating one day per week due to tariffs. I don't see how they can survive this long term. Between this and the closure of the paper mill as Espanola, it is increasingly clear that the railway should have been allowed to close rather than dumping $30 million into it for no good reason. Algoma Steel is probably not going to survive the trade war but if it does, it likely makes a lot more sense for them to ship by road or transload in Sudbury if absolutely necessary rather than trying to continually prop up this perennial failure of a railway.

 

[crs1026]

It’s too soon in this whole tariff game to write off the Soo - although certainly the investors who own the steel mill will not let it bleed indefinitely. The amount of money needed to keep that line open is not that large - yet.
We may be talking “life support” at this point - but it’s a prudent measure while we see how the business shakes out.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

View attachment 670995
The Huron Central is now down to operating one day per week due to tariffs. I don't see how they can survive this long term. Between this and the closure of the paper mill as Espanola, it is increasingly clear that the railway should have been allowed to close rather than dumping $30 million into it for no good reason. Algoma Steel is probably not going to survive the trade war but if it does, it likely makes a lot more sense for them to ship by road or transload in Sudbury if absolutely necessary rather than trying to continually prop up this perennial failure of a railway.

The Espanola Mill has been bought.
Tariffs may be gone within a few years.
Building and maintaining railways should not be based on short term conditions, but on long term projections.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/bmi-group-industry-paper-pulp-northern-ontario-1.7506799

 

[dowlingm]

The Espanola Mill has been bought.
Tariffs may be gone within a few years.
Building and maintaining railways should not be based on short term conditions, but on long term projections.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/bmi-group-industry-paper-pulp-northern-ontario-1.7506799

Interesting that that piece mentions the group’s ownership of the Abitibi mill in Iroquois Falls where that logistics operation is going in to serve a Moosonee hospital project. Perhaps they have notions of a similar repurposing here.

 

[lenaitch]

It’s too soon in this whole tariff game to write off the Soo - although certainly the investors who own the steel mill will not let it bleed indefinitely. The amount of money needed to keep that line open is not that large - yet.
We may be talking “life support” at this point - but it’s a prudent measure while we see how the business shakes out.

- Paul

We will have to wait and see what, if any, the federal government's 'nation building' has on Algoma and other Canadian industries. They just spent a lot of money converting to electric arc furnaces. If the feds stick to their guns on military and infrastructure projects, Algoma could be decently positioned.

The Espanola Mill has been bought.
Tariffs may be gone within a few years.
Building and maintaining railways should not be based on short term conditions, but on long term projections.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/bmi-group-industry-paper-pulp-northern-ontario-1.7506799

To be clear, the mill site has been bought by BMI Group, which identifies "industrial repurposing and development" as their core business. We don't know what the plan is for the site but I wouldn't get too excited that it will remain a heavy industry, rail-dependent site. They currently own the former Iroquois Falls mill site as part of their holdings which will be used as an assembly yard for the hospital project in Moosonee. Who knows what will happen after that.

 

[micheal_can]

To be clear, the mill site has been bought by BMI Group, which identifies "industrial repurposing and development" as their core business. We don't know what the plan is for the site but I wouldn't get too excited that it will remain a heavy industry, rail-dependent site. They currently own the former Iroquois Falls mill site as part of their holdings which will be used as an assembly yard for the hospital project in Moosonee. Who knows what will happen after that.

https://www.sudbury.com/local-news/bmi-group-wants-to-put-wood-back-to-work-with-espanola-bio-hub-mill-concept-10517202

Biochar could put Espanola on the comeback trail

BMI Group inks partnership deal with CHAR Technologies to put wood waste residuals back to work

www.northernontariobusiness.com

There is no firm plans announced, but talks of bio fuels/biochar as being what it will produce, of which will need the railway to be viable again. I personally worked there before and the discussion was without the railway we would need several trucks a day just for the various chemicals we used. So, if the plant is to start backup, the railway is needed.It does not mean it needs to be at mainline standards, but it still needs to be maintained to a safe level for transporting the goods needed.