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drum118 said:
Back in the 70's a map was found in CP Union Station office showing UP running into Toronto in place of CP with CP operating only in Canada.

Then there was the talks of CN taking over CP that was kill by the Feds.

As for CN, they already took over a number of US railroads using Grand Trunk that now has disappeared and why they couldn't go after KSC,

Sadly these mergers will happen do to greed by all levels with us paying the shareholders yearly dividends including shippers

It sad to visit many places in the US that had all kinds of RR and yards to see nothing or very little left of yards,

Under clueless Trump we may end up seeing less trains as he will allow monster trains and move to one man crew to move them.
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Historically, CP was very tied into partnerships with specific US Railroads, such as New York Central/Penn Central (with which it co-owned the Toronto, Hamilton, and Buffalo), and the Delaware and Hudson. It also had a controlling stake in the Soo Line Railroad and some of its predecessors. By the 1990s, it fully absorbed its US holdings (which grew in the 1980s) into the CP system.

The CP map at Union Station did not really show its full reach even back then because of these stakes and partners.
 
Today the CEO of CN sent out an email to all employees summing up her and the companies thoughts on the recent UP-NS merger announcement. She talked about how CN will remain competitive going forward. Basically the undertone was that CN doesn't like this.

My theory on a BNSF - CSX merger is that CSX will be picked apart by BNSF, CN and potentially CPKC. My theory runs on the idea that CSX's days are numbered.

BNSF is not a a publicly traded company like all the other Class 1 railroads. It's majority owned by the hedge fund, Berkshire Hathaway. A hedge fund controlled by Warren Buffett. Warren Buffet is a penny pincher. He won't like the price that CSX will demand. BNSF and Berkshire Hathaway might approach CN and CPKC or vice versa.

- CPKC probably want the tracks running through Maine to help better connect Montreal to the Saint John port in New Brunswick. Allowing them to have a proper west coast - east coast mainline across Canada and positioning them to better compete with CN. Also allows them to bypass the port of Montreal whenever they decide to go on strike. CN already has this luxury with Halifax.
- CN will want a line that goes to one of the east coast American ports. At the Brampton Yard we load up a "CSX train" which we send to CSX's Buffalo yard, and then CSX takes to the east coast ports (New York, New Jersey, Philly). No doubt in my mind CN will want a direct line heading to at least one of these ports.
- BNSF get the rest.
 
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Railway CEO’s and their execs, and their shareholders, are not caught by surprise by these announcements - and indeed these merger proposals are floated regularly - and each corporation has plenty of “what if” response strategies ready for various potential scenarios.
Obviously there will be anxieties in the workforce and the top brass will want to position around those.
The issue boils down to, each company will be debating whether to be the first to stick their necks out and launch a merger action. A lot depends on timing and stars aligning. And when one has gone forward, the rest feel safer doing likewise - or feel they have to, as a protective matter.
CN and BNSF did actively pursue a merger 25 or so years ago, but never reached terms.
It’s really all in the hands of the lawyers now, and I’m sure the industry has all sorts of schemes and shenanigans up their sleeves at the ready.
This kind of business activity is cutthroat and very strategic. It will be entertaining to watch. I wouldn’t discount any scenario at this point… the darndest things do happen.

- Paul
 
Bojaxs said:
CPKC probably want the tracks running through Maine to help better connect Montreal to the Saint John port in New Brunswick.
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CSX only bought Pan Am a few years ago - if CP wanted it then, couldn’t they have just bid on it? Or are you thinking they only want a piece of PAR? (Also am unclear as to how this better connects Montreal rather than the former MMA and then Irving NBSR to the port?
 
Bojaxs said:
CPKC probably want the tracks running through Maine to help better connect Montreal to the Saint John port in New Brunswick. Allowing them to have a proper west coast - east coast mainline across Canada and positioning them to better compete with CN.
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I was under the impression that CPKC got access to the port of Saint John back in 2020 when it bought the Central Maine and Quebec railway. That railway line interchanges with the J.D. Irving-owned New Brunswick Southern railway I think. CSX doesn't own any tracks into Saint John, only NBSR and CN do.
 
This is CPKC's system map:

1753964813120.png

From: https://www.trains.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/TRN_CP_KCS_traffic_map.jpg

This is CSX's map (green and red are PanAm)

1753964930042.png

Taken from: https://www.railwayage.com/wp-conte...X_Integrated_System_-Map-1_RRR-1-660x1024.jpg

CN's Map with some others is here:

1753965057597.png

From: https://www.cn.ca/-/media/images/maps/north-america-railroad-network-map-en.jpg

There, now everyone can scribble equitably, LOL
 
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Sauga89 said:
I was under the impression that CPKC got access to the port of Saint John back in 2020 when it bought the Central Maine and Quebec railway. That railway line interchanges with the J.D. Irving-owned New Brunswick Southern railway I think. CSX doesn't own any tracks into Saint John, only NBSR and CN do.
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My mistake. You're right. It seems CPKC has some sort of haulage rights deal with EMRY/ NBSR to send their trains directly to the Port of Saint John.

CP made a big mistake selling off so much of their track in Maine back in the 90's. Now that they have access to the Port of Saint John, they must be regretting this decision.
 
Bojaxs said:
My mistake. You're right. It seems CPKC has some sort of haulage rights deal with EMRY/ NBSR to send their trains directly to the Port of Saint John.

CP made a big mistake selling off so much of their track in Maine back in the 90's. Now that they have access to the Port of Saint John, they must be regretting this decision.
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When considering the importance of accessing different ports, perhaps it would be useful for people to see the top 20 Ports in the U.S. and Canada by volume (2023)

1753983916992.png

From: https://www.ajot.com/premium/ajot-top-20-north-american-ports

I'm not sure Saint John is all that much of a 'get' right now. Any port, of course, could see its volume grow............

When you look at where the existing Canadian-owned rail networks are in the U.S.

The 'Gets' would more than likely be access to the highest volume U.S. east coast ports, New York/NJ, Savannah, and Virginia, along with Houston on the Gulf.

Looking at the full CSX network, it can reach all of those, except Houston (no presence in Texas) CP is already at Houston, and CN has an alternative Gulf Port, so that would seem low priority anyway.

CSX connects to CN's N-S plant in the U.S. at Memphis and ST. L

CSX connects to CPKC at St. L

To both at Chicago, Detroit and Buffalo.
 
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Northern Light said:
When considering the importance of accessing different ports, perhaps it would be useful for people to see the top 20 Ports in the U.S. and Canada by volume (2023)

View attachment 670172
From: https://www.ajot.com/premium/ajot-top-20-north-american-ports

I'm not sure Saint John is all that much of a 'get' right now. Any port, of course, could see its volume grow............

When you look at where the existing Canadian-owned rail networks are in the U.S.

The 'Gets' would more than likely to be access to highest volume U.S. east coast ports, New York/NJ, Savannah, and Virginia, along with Houston on the Gulf.

Looking at the full CSX network, it can reach all of those, except Houston (no presence in Texas) CP is already at Houston, and CN has alternative Gulf Port, so that would seem low priority anyway.

CSX connects to CN's N-S plant in the U.S. at Memphis and ST. L

CSX connects to CPKC at St. L

To both at Chicago, Detroit and Buffalo.
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That is containers.Does Saint John even handle containers?
 
micheal_can said:
That is containers.Does Saint John even handle containers?
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Yes and seen the dock with no traffic. It not big that I can recall compare to Halifax
 
Another factor to consider is congestion ('dwell times'). Both rail and maritime, but a container ship waiting at anchor is losing a lot of money. I couldn't find a comprehensive table but I read that Saint John is running at about 50% capacity which would assume a quick turnaround.
 
lenaitch said:
Another factor to consider is congestion ('dwell times'). Both rail and maritime, but a container ship waiting at anchor is losing a lot of money. I couldn't find a comprehensive table but I read that Saint John is running at about 50% capacity which would assume a quick turnaround.
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That’s one reason why ports like Philadelphia and Baltimore remain competitive even when Norfolk/Newport News is a shorter distance for ships from Europe. They also have different rail and road links.

But if Halifax has the capacity, I’m not sure how Saint John (which is on a secondary rail route) can easily compete.
 
ShonTron said:
But if Halifax has the capacity, I’m not sure how Saint John (which is on a secondary rail route) can easily compete.
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CPKC's mainline doesn't go to Halifax. So if you're a CPKC customer, it's either Montreal or Saint John.
 
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