[ShonTron]

Except cops on bikes. I once was being harassed by a cop in a car on my bike and a bunch of other cops on bikes came to my rescue and started harassing him for harassing me.

Cops who are normally on bike patrol seem to be a bit friendlier and respectful in my experience. I think confining cops to their cars, driving around, has been one of many factors to why they can be hostile to the people they are supposedly serving.

 

[UntitledCyclist]

My understanding is this is temporary until the bike lanes are redone and raised to sidewalk height later this year? As per:



Also did the extension of these lanes to Yonge get cancelled?

But even so-called permanent infra can be damaged or ripped out, meanwhile "temporary" solutions often last for years. Even something temp should done properly and safely. But for sure, they don't care as much.

 

[generalcanada]

Cops who are normally on bike patrol seem to be a bit friendlier and respectful in my experience. I think confining cops to their cars, driving around, has been one of many factors to why they can be hostile to the people they are supposedly serving.

Like it or not. the classic "beat cops" who walk or bike the streets are wayyy more involved in the community then cops driving around in big luxury SUV's

 

[afransen]

Cops who are normally on bike patrol seem to be a bit friendlier and respectful in my experience. I think confining cops to their cars, driving around, has been one of many factors to why they can be hostile to the people they are supposedly serving.

They may see it as a waste of time, but I think every uniformed officer should spend time in the community on foot or bike. Being isolated in a car definitely has a psychological impact on how you view 'others'.

 

[Natika33]

They may see it as a waste of time, but I think every uniformed officer should spend time in the community on foot or bike. Being isolated in a car definitely has a psychological impact on how you view 'others'.

Agreed. In Japan, they have networks of small neighbourhood police boxes rather than just one big centralized station and the few officers manning it take turns walking around outside it. I wouldn't be opposed to a similar set-up here. They really get to know the neighbourhood well that way. It's also useful for when one needs police help or wants to report on something unsafe happening as there's always a "koban" nearby to do so. Probably another reason why even petty crime like litter is better controlled there than here.

 

[enter username]

Some interesting details about government document redactions in a Gleaner article on the bill 212 lawsuit

 

[Northern Light]

They may see it as a waste of time, but I think every uniformed officer should spend time in the community on foot or bike. Being isolated in a car definitely has a psychological impact on how you view 'others'.

Agreed. In Japan, they have networks of small neighbourhood police boxes rather than just one big centralized station and the few officers manning it take turns walking around outside it. I wouldn't be opposed to a similar set-up here. They really get to know the neighbourhood well that way. It's also useful for when one needs police help or wants to report on something unsafe happening as there's always a "koban" nearby to do so. Probably another reason why even petty crime like litter is better controlled there than here.

Tokyo has ~300 police officers for every 100,000 people

Toronto has ~160 police officers for every 100,000 people.

I broadly agree with the value of more community-based policing including on bike and foot.

I also think, frankly, we could just use more divisions, we really centralized into very large operations.

That said..........we did that for a few reasons.

After a few years of controversial police budget and salary increases, there was real pressure to keep a lid on the police budget. For the last decade or so, its grown at, or slightly below the rate of inflation.
There has been no allowance for population growth, there is some sense to that, in that, the crime rate was mostly trending downwards throughout this period, and Mayors/Councils were prioritizing tax freezes.

That being the case, Toronto's number of officers actually fell from a peak of over 5,700 to about 4,800 (2019), today its ~5,100.
If we had maintained peak strength, on a per capita basis, over a period in which Toronto added ~500,000 residents..... we would have 6,800 officers today.

However, that would come at a steep price.......an additional 1,700 officers, in direct payroll costs alone would be over 200M per year, and more divisions and offices would mean rent/property costs, vehicle/bike/uniform/weapons, plus supervisors etc. A total bill would be closer to 300M per year, not including one-time capital costs. Roughly equal to 6% property tax hike, with no inflation factored in and no new money for any other service.

****

Its an interesting exercise to try and fund everything we all think we'd like.

It there some internal money available within TPS? I'd argue for nixing the mounted unit, which would provide a few re-deployable officers and some budget savings that could be shifted to cover a few net new hires.

Undoubtedly there are some other areas too, but it would be hard to find anything much above 30M per year.

There are so many pressing priorities.

One possible idea would be for swapping out the TTC's special constables with TPS, On an officer for officer basis, the costs actually wouldn't rise all that much, and it would give you another 100-140 warm bodies.

Another would be to scale back spending on security guards at City buildings which traditionally didn't have them until the last 10-15 years, like libraries and rec. centres etc. and swap some of those jobs out for police on a 2 for 1 basis.

I think you could realistically fund 50-100 new police w/that money.

******

This, however, is the Cycling thread, so back to our regularly scheduled programming now!

 

[Mihairokov]

Like it or not. the classic "beat cops" who walk or bike the streets are wayyy more involved in the community then cops driving around in big luxury SUV's

Cars are a socially isolating environment and insulate the user from the outside world. Of course people on bikes and sidewalks are more open and understanding of community and public uses of space.

 

[UntitledCyclist]

Tokyo has ~300 police officers for every 100,000 people

Toronto has ~160 police officers for every 100,000 people.

I broadly agree with the value of more community-based policing including on bike and foot.

I also think, frankly, we could just use more divisions, we really centralized into very large operations.

That said..........we did that for a few reasons.

After a few years of controversial police budget and salary increases, there was real pressure to keep a lid on the police budget. For the last decade or so, its grown at, or slightly below the rate of inflation.
There has been no allowance for population growth, there is some sense to that, in that, the crime rate was mostly trending downwards throughout this period, and Mayors/Councils were prioritizing tax freezes.

That being the case, Toronto's number of officers actually fell from a peak of over 5,700 to about 4,800 (2019), today its ~5,100.
If we had maintained peak strength, on a per capita basis, over a period in which Toronto added ~500,000 residents..... we would have 6,800 officers today.

However, that would come at a steep price.......an additional 1,700 officers, in direct payroll costs alone would be over 200M per year, and more divisions and offices would mean rent/property costs, vehicle/bike/uniform/weapons, plus supervisors etc. A total bill would be closer to 300M per year, not including one-time capital costs. Roughly equal to 6% property tax hike, with no inflation factored in and no new money for any other service.

****

Its an interesting exercise to try and fund everything we all think we'd like.

It there some internal money available within TPS? I'd argue for nixing the mounted unit, which would provide a few re-deployable officers and some budget savings that could be shifted to cover a few net new hires.

Undoubtedly there are some other areas too, but it would be hard to find anything much above 30M per year.

There are so many pressing priorities.

One possible idea would be for swapping out the TTC's special constables with TPS, On an officer for officer basis, the costs actually wouldn't rise all that much, and it would give you another 100-140 warm bodies.

Another would be to scale back spending on security guards at City buildings which traditionally didn't have them until the last 10-15 years, like libraries and rec. centres etc. and swap some of those jobs out for police on a 2 for 1 basis.

I think you could realistically fund 50-100 new police w/that money.

******

This, however, is the Cycling thread, so back to our regularly scheduled programming now!

Not that it's the only (or main factor) but Tokyo police do not make as much as Toronto's overpaid cruiser jockeys do, either in absolute converted rates or in terms of cost of living calculations.

Google yields equiv of C$92K/year for Tokyo cops as average gross salary.

Toronto cops are averaging $101K/year.

Not a massive difference, but TPS make about 10% more than Tokyo police make. And keep in mind Tokyo is the biggest metropolitan area (by pop) in the world, and not a cheap place to live.

I would bet most police live in or close to their wards, but also commute by public transit. I believe a very small percentage of Toronto police do that. Much, much better subways and regional trains there than here of course.

Seems to me the average day for TPS patrol officers is drive to work from the suburbs or exburbs, drive around all shift in a cruiser, then drive home again. The carbon footprint alone is embarrassing.

Of course reducing police salaries is simply NOT going to happen in Toronto, so it's kind of moot as a strategy to increase numbers or quality or even changing the style of policing. The culture shift needed to get more Toronto cops out of their cars, on the street, or even on bikes is vast. But it's still worth remembering that the average Toronto cop is a sunshine list member, whatever you may think of that.

 

[Northern Light]

Not that it's the only (or main factor) but Tokyo police do not make as much as Toronto's overpaid cruiser jockeys do, either in absolute converted rates or in terms of cost of living calculations.

Google yields equiv of C$92K/year for Tokyo cops as average gross salary.

Toronto cops are averaging $101K/year.

I wouldn't get too tied up on this.........while I would love to see the way police hours and pay are managed completely re-thought, the difference isn't all that steep, and not what you imagine.

A quick review of the Tokyo situation yields that their pay grid tops out at 8 years experience that salary at that level is approx. $113,000 per year CAD.

I would bet most police live in or close to their wards, but also commute by public transit. I believe a very small percentage of Toronto police do that. Much, much better subways and regional trains there than here of course.

Certainly possible, maybe even likely, but we don't have the kind of public transit network Tokyo does...... yet.

Seems to me the average day for TPS patrol officers is drive to work from the suburbs or exburbs, drive around all shift in a cruiser, then drive home again. The carbon footprint alone is embarrassing.

When speaking of average days..........a typical Toronto officer works 7 days in a row, 11 hours per day, for a 77 hour week.

Then gets 7 days off in a row.

Resulting in a nominal average of a 38.5 hour work week.

But in reality, you get an absolutely brutal schedule...... (what mood would anyone be in on hour 7 on day 7 of the work week?, and how well could they concentrate?)

Followed by a long period of no scheduled work, which is how you get all those officers doing paid duty and overtime.

For contrast,the largest number of Tokyo officers work a 4-day, 40-hour work week, 4 days on/4 days off.

Of course reducing police salaries is simply NOT going to happen in Toronto, so it's kind of moot as a strategy to increase numbers or quality or even changing the style of policing. The culture shift needed to get more Toronto cops out of their cars, on the street, or even on bikes is vast. But it's still worth remembering that the average Toronto cop is a sunshine list member, whatever you may think of that.

I think the sunshine list is pretty much useless at this point.

The median hourly wage (1/2 of all people earn more, 1/2 less) is now $39.44 per hour in Toronto. That works out to ~$82,000 per year.

In the context of a job where people work nights and weekends, I don't find the base pay completely off the charts anymore...........too high..........but I think the way shifts are managed is much more problematic as is far too
much expended on overtime.

***

Extra note, I was curious, so I looked up the annual salary of a typical police officer in Denmark ~$105,000 to start, $138,000 for senior officers.

Of course in Denmark, most entry level wages are higher, and the welfare state more robust, for everyone. (which I support) and you typically require a university degree to be a police officer.

Comparisons are therefore quite challenging.

 

[Natika33]

I wouldn't get too tied up on this.........while I would love to see the way police hours and pay are managed completely re-thought, the difference isn't all that steep, and not what you imagine.

A quick review of the Tokyo situation yields that their pay grid tops out at 8 years experience that salary at that level is approx. $113,000 per year CAD.



Certainly possible, maybe even likely, but we don't have the kind of public transit network Tokyo does...... yet.



When speaking of average days..........a typical Toronto officer works 7 days in a row, 11 hours per day, for a 77 hour week.

Then gets 7 days off in a row.

Resulting in a nominal average of a 38.5 hour work week.

But in reality, you get an absolutely brutal schedule...... (what mood would anyone be in on hour 7 on day 7 of the work week?, and how well could they concentrate?)

Followed by a long period of no scheduled work, which is how you get all those officers doing paid duty and overtime.

For contrast,the largest number of Tokyo officers work a 4-day, 40-hour work week, 4 days on/4 days off.



I think the sunshine list is pretty much useless at this point.

The median hourly wage (1/2 of all people earn more, 1/2 less) is now $39.44 per hour in Toronto. That works out to ~$82,000 per year.

In the context of a job where people work nights and weekends, I don't find the base pay completely off the charts anymore...........too high..........but I think the way shifts are managed is much more problematic as is far too
much expended on overtime.

***

Extra note, I was curious, so I looked up the annual salary of a typical police officer in Denmark ~$105,000 to start, $138,000 for senior officers.

Of course in Denmark, most entry level wages are higher, and the welfare state more robust, for everyone. (which I support) and you typically require a university degree to be a police officer.

Comparisons are therefore quite challenging.

Another element to factor in is that employers pay the commuting costs for their workers in Japan and often arrange for other discounts for their employees (e.g., lunch boxes for only 300yen). Definitely hard to do an apples to apples comparison.

 

[generalcanada]

Judge grills province on whether Toronto bike lane removals are 'arbitrary'

Justice Paul Schabas considering whether to block government from removing lanes while he considers Charter challenge

www.thetrillium.ca

details from the hearing today. Things arent looking good for the government. most of these points have ben raised in the past

Government says induced demand is speculative apperently

"Two lanes can carry more cars than one," he said.

Justice Paul Schabas was evidently not impressed, noting that 100 years of automobile history have shown that driving in crowded downtown areas leads to heavy traffic.

"Even though you say it, I don't have to accept that two lanes can carry more than one," Schabas said.

While adding a vehicle lane may save drivers a few minutes at first, in the long term, it will fill up with cars, and travel times will go back to normal, he said — a planning principle known as induced demand.

“That’s what all the traffic experts around the world say," the judge said.

"Our position is that that’s speculative," Hunter said.

Very obviously "arbitrary decision" big key part in the cyclists case

But those decisions are made after the government considers data, expert advice and pre-existing criteria, Schabas said. If someone launched a Charter challenge against a stoplight, the government could say it installed the light because driver speeds at that intersection were too high.

“It’s actually based on something," Schabas said.

Later, he prodded Ontario on why the government only chose to remove bike lanes on Bloor, Yonge and University.

“There’s no explanation as to why those streets over any other streets," Schabas said.

The Crown lawyer said she couldn't speak for the government, but noted that those streets all have public transit routes along them.

But the premier didn’t say he was choosing roads with subways under them when he announced the removals — "He just picked them," Schabas noted.

Claims emergency response times, but doesnt provide data....very curious

Schabas raised his voice at another Crown lawyer who spoke about fire response times. The judge asked why the government wasn't able to get hard evidence from emergency response personnel.

“You’ve got all that information at your fingertips ... and yet you didn’t get it," he said.

 

[txlseries4]

Last week Michael Longfield of Cycle Toronto spoke at the Infrastructure and Environment Committee about the congestion management plan and in his presentation included previously unreleased/confidential government documents that have been shared through the court case, which all show internal info the gov has that doesn't support their argument to remove the lanes. Not like much of this is groundbreaking for many of us in the thread but seemed interesting enough to screenshot and share here

 

[max]

View attachment 644740

I like to imagine that the redacted text says something like, "Lawyers ride bikes and you're gonna get sued"

 

[evandyk]

I bet it says "Data collected shows that roads with bike lanes are safer for vulnerable road users and you're gonna get sued".